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| How can High elves beat skaven?; I need help losing | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 18th January 2011 - 09:16 PM (2,909 Views) | |
| Hosj II | 18th January 2011 - 09:16 PM Post #1 |
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I play against my friend a lot, (He plays High Elves) and I haven't lost a single game. I am getting tired of this. Is there any advice I could tell him? We play 2000-2500 points. This was my list for the last battle. Warlord Weeping blade, Enchanted shield, Poisoned attacks, rat hound bodyguard. 145 points 2x Plague priest Level 2 270 points Warlock Engineer Level 1, Warp energy condenser, Doomrocket 115 points Chieftain Halberd, Shield, BSB, Warpstone Armour,luckstone. 109 points 20 stormvermin Shield, Full command, warpfire thrower, stormbanner 305 points 40x plague monks Full command, razor standard 350 points 32 giant rats 4 packmasters 128 points 2x 40 slaves Musician 164 points HPA warpstone spikes 250 Doomwheel 150 1986 points My opponent uses 2 blocks of sea gaurd, 30 strong each, some dragon prince, a prince on a griffon, 2 mages, one with high magic the other with lore of fire, some archers and swordmasters. Is my list too competitive? Is his terrible? Is this the wrong place to put an article like this? Sorry, I'm a noob. |
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| Shaldier | 18th January 2011 - 09:29 PM Post #2 |
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Well as a past high elves player I can try help. Unfortunately in the new rules of the game calvary arnt that good so I would suggest he drops those.Secondly suggest to him to take a lv4 archmage with lore of life and piling his 30 men lotherean sea guard unit into one block. Get the archmage in that block casting spells to bolster their toughness and give them regen etc. I'm not sure about the prince on griffon. I feel that he needs to bolster the swordmasters with some more men and give them any magic item he can to keep to keep them safe from your mages. Then use them to target units togthere using a synchronisd charge in the side and front at the same time. Also tell him to get some repeater bolt throwers. Their vital to a high elf army. Especially against your HPA and doom wheel. Hope you friend wins some now. P.S lol but I atcually had the reverse for my high elves I couldnt lose aganist my friends. Then as soon as I start skaven and give my high elves to my friend to play I massacred him. I feel bad
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| *Rolls dice* What? misfire?! *blown half way across the room by the subsequent explosion* | |
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| Nevamore | 18th January 2011 - 09:42 PM Post #3 |
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Stormvermin
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I don't think your list is even legal dude. IIRC giant rats don't count towards your 25% minimum core choice. Also theres no point in giving your warlord poisoned attacks as the effects don't stack with magic weapons. As far as being competative, while not being uber cheesy, you've got some really mean elements in there: the storm banner (brutal vs all elves, dwarfs and empire), the a-bomb (I've stopped using mine in games less than 3k points, it's like a win button). As far as helping yoyur buddy out, advise him to ignore the slaves. A lot of inexperienced players tend to focus fire onto large blocks of slaves simply because it's a large block of troops. As Shaldier said, he could do with dropping the dragon princes, they're a huge points sink and somewhat wasted against skaven who are always going to have the LD10 steadfast and are killed just as easily by cheaper elf units. @Shaldier: I disagree with your idea to combine both 30 man units into 1, mainly due to the fact that Hosj II is using 2 lvl 2 plague priests. Just 1 cast of plague and thats 30 dead elves on average. Also It'll make way too large a target for the doom rocket which just loves huge blocks of low toughness/armour infantry on 20mm bases. |
| When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. | |
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| Mathusala0 | 18th January 2011 - 09:43 PM Post #4 |
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The Evil Underlord
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your list isn't "to" competitive, but his is not competitive at all. Lord on a griffen? If i were him facing your list id take a lot more sword-masters with a lore of life archmage. as was stated before. your list lise should not be that hard to beat with high elves. he just need more close combat goodness and less things that will ALL be effected by your storm banner. when i started playing skaven i played against high elves and dark elves the most and lost almost always, over the corse of time my list evolved into something like yours and now the oppisit is happening. limited shooting via storm banner, hard to kill hell-pit/doomwheels, plague magic as opposed to ruin. ext. sword masters or phinix guard with banner of the world dragon. GG |
![]() The Glossary of Common Underempire Lingo The Skaven Guide to competitive list building (8th Edition) The Skaven Castle Formation | |
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| Hosj II | 18th January 2011 - 09:50 PM Post #5 |
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AAH I should have known. I was using this on-line army list creator. I would agree with what Nevamore said. He seemed to like killing slaves. He also targeted my plague monks, which were killer in our past game but were in the back this time. |
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| Gixit | 18th January 2011 - 09:53 PM Post #6 |
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Stormvermin
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I can understand with long experience gaming against the same opponents that, yeah, winning all the time isn't fun: it gets repetitive going in knowing you'll have an easy time and furthermore makes your friend disinclined to play as much if they aren't of the "losing is fun" mentality. If you want to give your HE friend advice, look at what people around here complain about all the time "Teclis in a bunker" "Phoenix Guard Bunker", "huge blocks of swordmasters" and the like. If you'd rather make your list a little less reliable... take more stuff that explodes. Every once in a while, the Warp-lightning cannon will spin around and dust your general, the warpfire throwers will detonate catastrophically or just roast your own rats, and the globradiers and jezzails will all kill themselves rather than the enemy. |
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| Scurrilous | 18th January 2011 - 10:50 PM Post #7 |
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Warlord
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Tell him to take the minimum core needed and that HE shooting is pretty much pointless. He needs more swordmasters and white lions really. Lore of life is good with them. |
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Tournemant results to date: vs Vampire Counts: 1 victory vs Dwarves: 1 victory vs Daemons: 1 Draw vs Brettonians: 1 draw, 1 loss vs Skaven: 1 victory vs Lizardmen: 1 victory vs Dark Elves: 1 loss vs High Elves: 1 loss | |
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| Hosj II | 18th January 2011 - 11:02 PM Post #8 |
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Thanks for the help guys. I e-mailed him this thread. |
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| Sketch | 18th January 2011 - 11:55 PM Post #9 |
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scratchings and squeakings
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I play as High Elves most of the time. (Although now that I've finally started painting my Skaven they're seeing a lot more action.) Most of his problems are indeed in his list. First of all the Prince on Griffon is really, really, really not a good way to go. Griffon's are far too expensive for what they do. Sun Dragons are so much better it's not even funny. Advise (don't tell) him to swap it for an Archmage. I usually go with Shadow (just more my style) but against Skaven Life would be the best. Give the Archmage Annulian Crystal for defensive arcane item (help him against the spontaneous Plagues) and probably the 'make me ethereal' talisman. Put this guy in the Phoenix Guard. He'll need a BSB. Although everyone on this forum seems in awe of the Banner of the World Dragon I'd advise against it. Although it is pretty epic it means your BSB will be killed in the first round of any CC he's in. (Even Slaves could probably take him.) 2 wounds at T3 with a 4 or 5+ AS is VERY easy to kill. Go instead with Armour of Caledor. (Basically Silvered Steel for 20 points less) and either Guardian Phoenix, Dawnstone or the Luckstone if he's feeling cheap. (Like I always do.) Great Weapons on any CC oriented character BTW. Put this guy in the Swordmasters. Against Skaven I'd also recommend a Radiant Gem of Hoeth Chicken Noble. (That's a Level 1 wizard/hero on an Eagle to those who don't of you who can't speak Elf-thing.) Give him Lore of Death Spirit Leech to snipe Skaven characters who now quite rightly have to use unmodified (no SIN) Ld. Watch 'em squeek and sizzle! Charmed Shield and Dragon Armour to give some slight protection against various Warp based War Machine Death. I'd replace the Sea Guard with the following: 33 Spearmen- Full Command, Gleaming Pennant 327 14 Archers- Musician, Light Armour 173 This means spending the absolute minimum on Core which is what playing High Elves (playing High Elves in a relatively unfun manner with a very serious expression on your face which on the whole looks pretty ridiculous) is all about. The strengths of the High Elf army are all in Special choices, it's illogical to kid yourself otherwise. The choices I listed above gives you a good CC oriented unit which is relatively cheap and will quite happily chew through large blocks of Skaven Core. (He won't be able to avoid the tarpits forever so when he does hit them, hit them with something non-essential but which will still do a decent job of killing them.) I think Archers are a better choice than LSG as they have that crucial extra range. The Light Armour probably isn't essential (swap for more Archers) but I like it as I can use them as end game flankers. All that said, LSG aren't too bad against Skaven where their massed bowfire will probably account for a decent amount. Just don't use them against something like Dwarfs. With regard to Specials, I say keep the Dragon Princes. They are highly mobile and devastating when they charge. It's true that they won't smash through things like they used to (those were the days) but they are unbeatable support units. Swordmasters are probably the weakest (only very slightly though) of the three elite infantry choices but I always use them cause I like the fluff for them and WS6 is just mad! Field them in a wide formation to minimise War Machine damage and maximise attacks. These are your primary targets for buffer spells. Flesh to Stone, Regeneration thingy, hell, why not both?! They draw fire like nothing else and they will get blown away unless you can do your utmost to protect them. Give them either the Banner of Eternal Flame and watch the Abomination disintegrate into a smouldering pile of goo (Like, even gooier than it was when it started!) or the Banner of Swift-Swiftness to help them get into combat faster. With the other points for special add in some more elite infantry. I'd say Phoenix Guard for against Skaven. Finally, Rare. DON'T take Bolt Throwers. They're horrendously overpriced anyway and will do next to nothing against a Skaven army. Eagles are the gold in the High Elf rare section. There's far too much to say about them here. Just look up ulthuan.net and you'll find a host of tacticas on everything, Eagles included. There'll probably be a few spare points in there and with it I'd get a few more Archers (sorry if I'm contradicting what I said earlier.) Prioritise Weapon Teams with missile troops. Try and stop the Doomwheel in its tracks with Phoenix Guard and smash aside the A-Bomb with your Swordmasters (and then anything stupid enough to be behind it aswell!) Eagles harry War Machines, Dragon Princes play support to the elite infantry and Spearmen tie up the tarpits to stop them stopping your good stuff. I think that's about it. Oh, give one unit (Phoenix Guard are best) the Banner of 'Give me D3 Power Dice' to help you dominate magic still more. Basically just sift through every article you can find on ulthuan.net. Skaven are (or possibly were by now) enemy of the month so there's loads of advice on beating the scurrying rodents. Glory to the Asur!!! (I'm going to be assassinated for saying that aren't I?) Sketch |
Raining Blood / M(elrik)atriculation / Twikitch's Triumph![]()
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| Hosj II | 19th January 2011 - 01:30 AM Post #10 |
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He found out! No call back the deathmaster! Thanks. I'll tell him. I'm so dead. Wait, he's so dead. |
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| Paricidas | 19th January 2011 - 06:48 AM Post #11 |
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Doomwheel Driver
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Sketchs thread covers almost anything thats to say about this issue, just a few points: Why lore of life? Elfs are glasscanons and even white lions will die a horrible death when facing too many ws2 str3 slaves, therefor, protection (and restauration) is direly needed). Dwellers is the icing of the cake. Why lore of death? To snipe the BSB-rat with the signature spell If you really want to deal with slaves (I would not recommend it, but there are battlefields where you simply have to), stop them with a unit of phoenix guards and flank them with swordmasters AFTER you have dwellered them to reasonable size. Again, do this only if you really have to, slaves are the nighmare of any HE commander as most elfen units simply lack the number of attacks to deal with them in a reasonable amount of time. A swordmaster champion with the talisman of Loec and a life mage in his vicinity will give every skaven character of hero lvl a run for his money, just dont expect him to onehitkill a bonebreaker. Deployment: Elfs start their deployment with eagles, as they have such a high movement rate its almost unimportant where they are deployed, they will reach their goals in time. The skaven player will soon get outdeployed (if he does not have multiple GR units) and has to reveal his battleplan. If you play at reasonable game sizes, the skaven army will soon cover half the table while the elf will concentrate most of his forces on one spot at a flank. This will allow him to concentrate all his forces on one side of the skaven army and probably crush it, while the other flank of the rats is trying to rush to their comrades help in vain. The eagles will meanwhile force a decision upon the rat general, will he sacrifice powerdices and shooting on something as worthless as an eagle, or will he go all out with magic and shooting and lose his warmachines by the end of turn 3? Thats of course only if everything goes the elfs way. Losing the deployment is almost inevitable for the skaven player, but if he manages to "guess" the correct flank or he takes funaces, A-Bombs etc. in the center, where they can get to any flank in less than two turns, the elfs will start getting troubles. This of course are only common tips and not specified for that weak pile of rodent you call an army. No BSB, no shooting? Well, the HE just has to make sure the priests dont get off plague (not that hard), dweller the monks and stop the survivors with the phoenix guard. The skaven charakters can be hacked to bits by the unit champions and its game over for the skaven as anything that is not dead at this point of the game will test on snake-eyes every turn. Just make sure the life mages casts and casts and casts (not much of a problem with addional d3 powerstones and some of the most overpowered magical artifacts in the whole WH-world) |
| Ceterum censeo Altdorfem esse delendam | |
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| Hosj II | 20th January 2011 - 12:17 AM Post #12 |
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Should I be worried that i'll me smashed next battle? Glory to the skaven!
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| anthem0x | 20th January 2011 - 05:32 AM Post #13 |
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Clan Eshin Musician
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Funny, when I play against HE I always smell cheese. A friend of mine uses all of these strats, sans eagles. He annihilated me last game. Though, in my opinion, I made some very bad mistakes. For instance, I didn't measure quite accurately and left my priest a quarter inch outside of the 3" cover of my unit. He shot it to death. Very cheesy, for a casual game, but c'est la vie. |
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| Paricidas | 20th January 2011 - 05:41 AM Post #14 |
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Doomwheel Driver
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I would thank him for teaching me an important lesson. ![]() Imho HE are not cheesy by themself (they are rather difficult to play, I think) However, you can cheese em up with the right items and units (a unit of 30 phoenix guards, deployed 3 wide, with a crown of command, a banner of the worlddragon and a book of hoeth life mage is perhaps one of the worst "I failed at speed dating"-units one can field) |
| Ceterum censeo Altdorfem esse delendam | |
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| Razuli | 20th January 2011 - 05:43 AM Post #15 |
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Grey Seer
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Basically all armies are this way though, its just some armies have easier access to it. |
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