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Dwarven Guns and you:
Topic Started: 18th January 2011 - 07:51 PM (385 Views)
Nicodemus
Clanrat
How to defeat a Stuntie Gunline:

I'm not going to attepmt to write how to do it, although I will discuss how I plan on doing it, and hope my opponent does not come here to spy. (Being the Skaven player I am, I do check Bugman's repeatedly throughout the day looking for helpful clues on how to beat him).

It will be a 2500 point game, no named Lord characters. There are no other restrictions. Here is my list that was created at the beginning of our league, as if it was a tournament. It is static and cannot be changed according to who you play.

Warlord
Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Preservation, Sword of Swift Striking

Grey Seer
Foul Pendant, Skalm, D3 Warpstone tokens

Chieftain
Army Standard Bearer, Shield, Dragonhelm, Talisman of Endurance

Plague Priest
Flail, Ironcurse Icon, Dispel Scroll, Plague Furnace

Warlock Engineer
Level 1, Warp-Engery Condenser, Doom Rocket

40 Skavenslaves
40 Skavenslaves

30 Clanrats
Shields, Full Command, Poison Wind Mortar

30 Clanrats
Shields, Full Command, Warp-Fire Thrower

30 Clanrats
Shields, Full Command

20 Giant Rats
3 Packmasters

20 Giant Rats
3 Packmasters

30 Plague Monks
Full Command
Storm Banner

6 Gutter Runners
Poisoned Attacks, Slings

6 Gutter Runners
Poisoned Attacks, Slings

Warp-Lightning Cannon


My opponent's list can be summarized like this:

Lord on Shieldbearers (defensive build)
Thane BSB (very hard to kill with 2+ AS, 4+Ward)
Runesmith with 2 Spellbreaker Runes
Master Engineer with a Hand Weapon

29 Longbeards
Full Command, Rune of Determination

29 Warriors
Great Weapons, Full Command

18 Quarreller/Rangers
Great Weapons, Standard, Musician

23 Hammerers
Full Command, Rune of Battle

Cannon
Rune of Forging, Rune of Burning

Cannon
Rune of Forging

Grudge Thrower
Rune of Accuracy, Rune of Penetrating

Organ Gun


Our main objective for the match is to kill the enemy BSB. A secondary objective is to claim territory (terrain pieces, with 5 or more models).

After alot of thought, I decided that rushing his line and trying to kill his Thane would end in disaster. Even with my Storm Banner, I've accepted the fact the my Plague Furnce will not make it across the table.

Now, I do outnumber him with bodies, and have twice as many units. This I need to use to my advange. At full strength, his dwarfs out match my Skaven in combat, but if I can reduce the sizes of his units, I can become Steadfast and will then have the advantage, at least for a turn or two.

So, being that I will surely win the deployment phase of the game, I will have Slaves across from his Hammerers and slaves across from his Warriors to soak up the great weapon attacks while shooting them with the WLC and weapon teams.

The Furnace will line up across from the Longbeards and race to get to them before the Furnace is demolished (I have had such bad luck with my Storm Banner that soon it will turn around for me and prevent those cannons from firing).

My main concern, believe it or not, is his 18 Rangers. I need to have my Gutter Runners deployed 25 inches from his Organ Gun at the start. If he's smart, he will block me from doing this with his scout unit. The Gutter Runners simply won't stand up to the shooting of his Rangers or the Organ Gun. I need to somehow get them deployed at the start of the game so thay may shoot at those damn machines.

Now, what to do with my Giant Rats. Initially, I was going to use them in combat, hopefully getting Bless With Filth on them and into a flank, but I realized that I would then have nothing to claim terrain pieces, especially the ones on my side of the board. They are cheap and would serve as cannon fodder, but my opponent isn't that stupid. Depending on where his scouts go, the two units of Giants Rats could be used to tie up his Rangers, letting my Gutter Runners have their way with the Dwarf line, once the Organ Gun is destroyed.

Dwarves are tough to cast against. Usually, I like to Skitterleap the Grey Seer behind enemy lines and begin casting Wither/Plague right from turn 1. Of course, this is a problem with a Dwarf Gunline, so my Seer will remain in a unit of Clanrats and they will have to advance for him to be effective. The Engineer will fire the Doomrocket as soon as the Banner lets up. This would have to be fired into Dwarves, as it will be unlikely to wound machines, and I am hoping that the Gutter Runners would have already destroyed a couple of them.

The easiest way for me to take the main objective is if my slaves tie up the Warrios and Hammeres long enough, while my Monks engage the Longbeards. My shooting absolutely must work well after the banner. My magic, usually crucial for me, will be minimal in this game, if anything. I am even thinking of going with the Dreaded 13th spell for this match, especially since he has a unit ripe for turning into clanrats (18 Rangers). It's a big risk, point-wise, but this match is not being played for Victory Points, and he has no magic to cast. Good for me.

Any suggestions, comments, criticism, corrections are appreciated.
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Shaldier
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Well I used to have a small dwarf army so I'll try and help. One good idea would be to use your skaven slave units as cover. A -2 to hit is pretty handy for keeping your main units alive. Also might I suggest you get the dreaded 13th spell for the grey seer and just use the warpstones token to bull through a cast on 8 dice. Just hope for 6s. I know its sligthly risky but what isn't in a skaven army? This could pretty much destroy his ranger unit. Also have you taken the -1 to hit amulet? Also might I suggest a assassain with the armour of silvered steel. 2+ armour save 4+ ward save. Charging a potential of 18 inches he could be used to run through the dwarf line straight into his gunline and start hacking about the war machines. Would have to drop some gutter runners to fit him though. Regardless good luck!
*Rolls dice* What? misfire?! *blown half way across the room by the subsequent explosion*
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Paricidas
Doomwheel Driver
The 29 longbeards are a perfekt target for your monks, if the furnace makes it to combat, than its game over for them. They lack the armor to withstand the onslaught of the monks and they lack the strengh to kill your furnace (if it arrives with more than one wound left).

Whiter and blessed with filth will be your friends in the magic phase.

If you so direly wish to deploy your gutter runners at the beginning of the game, then a warpstorm would come in handy to protect them from the musketeers. Stormbanner is a no-go there as it will prefent your GRs from scoring any poison hits.

I myself would rely on the stormbanner and let the GRs come to the game via sneaky infiltrator, you have two units of them. Thats a 25% chance for them to both come into play by turn2 (which would really be a problem for the dwarf) and a 75% chance that at least one makes it and gets a shot at one of his warmachines.

Alternativly you could focusfire the unit the BSB is in and hope for irresistable force when you cast the 13th. if you have done enough damage to his unit before, the BSB will also be killed and that seems to be one of your major goals.
Ceterum censeo Altdorfem esse delendam
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Plague Priest Phebrickid
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you can't use warpstone tokens to cast with more than 6 dice, but you could use the power wand
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Nicodemus
Clanrat
Thanks for the advice. I see your logic, Paricidas, and I will go with Sneaky Infiltrators instead of deploying the Gutter Runners. It totally slipped my mind that they would not be effective with the Storm Banner on!

About the Warpstone Tokens and Power Dice, I believe that Paricidas is correct about throwing the 8 dice for the Dreaded 13th. Warpstone Tokens are not generated by the Winds of Magic, and do not count as Power Dice. They are similar to the Night Goblins Magic Mushrooms, which are simply added to the spell being cast afterwards, although Skaven throws them at the same time as Power Dice (with some chance for it to backfire, of course).

There is an amendment in the FAQ 1.4, but it references the old style of casting from 7th ed. It doesn't say anything actually helpful in this case. All the Main rulebook says is that no more than 6 Power Dice may be used to cast a spell.

As for my Grey Seer, I had another question. I have been using Skitterleap to great effect. I may not use it against the Dwarfs, but if I did, would it be legal to move him anywhere on the battlefield if the spell succeeds? I had always interpetted the spell description to mean I had to place him at least 1 inch away from an enemy. Friend at my club got a good laugh at this, and told me otherwise. I then felt shame about how broken this spell is, if this is really the case.
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Paricidas
Doomwheel Driver
Unlike other teleportation spells, you may not end up in close combat with skitterleap and you must be 1 inch away from the enemy, as the BSb says.

Just do not count on skitterleap against dwarfs. If the dwarfen player is worth his magic runes, then he will at all cost prevent early skitterleaping. Main reasons for this are cracks call and the brass orb, as they all spell doom against warmachines, especially dwarfen made.
Ceterum censeo Altdorfem esse delendam
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Nicodemus
Clanrat
Thanks again. The Brass Orb would be nice to have in my list. It's something I am thinking of adding for the next round of league games (we can change our list before each round of games, but before we know our opponents).

If you're still interested in this discussion, let me ask another question. How would you protect the Chieftain in this scenario? My original idea is to put him with Clanrats positioned a little behind the Monks/Furnace. In the best case scenario, the slaves would be on either side of the monks. Obviously, the Dwarfs will be bunched up, probably on a hill. The 2 other clanrat units could be positioned a bit behind the slaves, ready to charge in after slaves are killed. I will need to continue to hold the Hammerers and Warrios in place.

So if it works out right in deployment and after a turn or two of moves, I should have my clanrats in a row, behind the line, and I will be free to move characters in and out, depending on losses and where they are most needed. Or, should I move the clanrats to flank the Hammerers/Warriors, instead of keeping them back? There is no oathstone in the Dwarf list, but the Great Weapons may negate combat resolution I will get for the flank bonus and disruption, he'll just do too many wounds to my units.

The BSB needs to be kept safe, but I will not hide him in a corner of the board like a cowardly Skaven might, I need his re-rolls. If you have other ideas, I'd like to know them.
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Paricidas
Doomwheel Driver
You have enough units to outdeploy the dwarf. Some rules to which I would abide in this battle.

The BSB is a center piece of any skaven army and yes, you will need the rerolls, otherwise half your army is running away after the first shooting phase.

On the other side you really do not want this guy to be in CC, as almost anything in the dwarfen list can be a serious thread to him.

The furnace is the only unit that does not need to be in BSB range, as it is unbreakable.

The furnace must get into CC as soon as possible, and it should get into CC with the longbeards, as they are the most tasty target.

Skaven units suck, period, none of your core choices can holde a candle to his, if you are really lucky you can perhaps defeat the 18 ranged dwarfs, but even they have twohanded wepaons. If you get a cheap and safe flankcharge, take it, but do not risk too much for such a manover, as it probably wont be worth the effort. I have very little experience with dwarfs, but I have won games by just standing around, getting rearcharged by imperial knights while engaged in combat with states troops. Granted, impire troops are not the elite of the elite, but dont expect two ordinary clanrat units to be any better.

As for the BSB, I would consider to "sacrifice" an ordinary unit of clanrats to be assigned as a commando bunker. Both BSB and seer go into the bunker, shielded from small missles by slaves. This will not help a thing against the sniper stonethrower, but even a dwarfen stonethrower needs some time to get through a stormbanner and 30 clanrats. Meanwhile, your gutterrunners have hopefully arrived and turned the stonethrowers into junk. Be careful how you move around with this unit, as it will probably NOT survive the massive fire of stonethrower and the organ gun. If you are lucky, the dwarf gets greedy and starts to fire at them with cannons, which will make your furnace one happy meatgrinder.


I
Ceterum censeo Altdorfem esse delendam
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Nicodemus
Clanrat
This goes against my ordinary line of thinking, by that I mean putting two characters into the same clanrat unit. However, your tactic just might work to my advantage. By placing the BSB and Seer in the same Clanrat unit, it just might attract the bulk of Dwarf shooting.

It would be fantastic to have my Monks reach the Longbeards while still pushing the Furnace. I am expecting the BSB to be in the Longbeards at the beginning of the game, however, if my opponent is smart, the BSB will move out once the Monks/Furnace approach.

Getting my slaves into combat early with the other two units of his (Hammerers and Warriors) may prevent the Thane BSB's move to safety.
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Paricidas
Doomwheel Driver
Nicodemus
Jan 19 2011, 05:04 PM
This goes against my ordinary line of thinking, by that I mean putting two characters into the same clanrat unit. However, your tactic just might work to my advantage. By placing the BSB and Seer in the same Clanrat unit, it just might attract the bulk of Dwarf shooting.


Well, the commando bunker is a bit risky, especially against mortar gunlines and life mages. It is extremly effectiv against close combat armies you can tie up with slaves. However I have been (very) successfull with it against empire gunlines (allthough I would not recommend it if you dont have stormbanner and GRs)

Its worth a try but will be a little bit risky, if the unit gets shot up too quickly (by the enemy or the seers IFs), you can still rush too cover behind a wall or building (if the battlefield allows it). This will limit the usefullness of the seers magic, depending on your spell list and the interpretation of the rules (If you allow scorch to be cast in CC but NOT the 13th, than a nice dirty hole in some wall is a nice place to hide the seer when everything is involved in CC).

I dont say this is the ultimate deployment for seers and BSB, as this can get spectaculary messy when the commando bunker blows up, but it has served me well in the past.
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Plague Priest Phebrickid
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Nicodemus
Jan 19 2011, 05:47 AM
About the Warpstone Tokens and Power Dice, I believe that Paricidas is correct about throwing the 8 dice for the Dreaded 13th. Warpstone Tokens are not generated by the Winds of Magic, and do not count as Power Dice. They are similar to the Night Goblins Magic Mushrooms, which are simply added to the spell being cast afterwards, although Skaven throws them at the same time as Power Dice (with some chance for it to backfire, of course).

yeah this subject is open for quite some debate, I believe there is a 90+ comment thread on this issue (i've not read it all but thats what i gathered) but I just tend to err on the side of caution when considering whether to use a rule that conflicts with another . . . but id be intrested to hear what that other faq said
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