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Skaven Slaves + Clan Rats + Shooting into Melee; can it be done?
Topic Started: 12th January 2011 - 03:46 PM (1,647 Views)
j2klbs
Clanrat
Another situation that came up in my game versus the dreaded high elves was that I had his dragon princes engaged with both my slaves and my clan rats (bell unit). I wanted to fire my warpfire thrower into the slaves to try to get some casualties on the elven cavalry.

However, my opponent argued that even if I have the ability to do that, it was only if the slaves were the only skaven unit in the melee. As soon as a non-slave skaven unit was in the melee (i.e. the clan rats), then I could no longer fire into the melee.

Sadly, I did not have my Skaven book to see if it clarified this issue. Any thoughts? Was he right? Or should I have been allowed to fire into the melee?

~Jason
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razaan
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Chieftain
You cannot fire into the melee if it contains anything other than slaves.

Also, you mentioned that you were going to fire into the slaves to put wounds on the dragon.... were you still randomizing the hits?
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CapAmr05
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Your opponent is correct; the rule allowing you to shoot in combat only lists slaves. The second any other friendly skaven model joins that combat you lose the ability to shoot in (imo).

I guess the thought behind it might have been, you run the risk of hitting non-slave skaven models (which used to be fine in 6th: life is cheap). Even though in this case it's a directable template that you can guarantee won't streak through the clanrats (aside from a misfire), you can't do it.

Further I think the common practice of placing a naked engineer in a unit of slaves for leadership purposes causes this issue (of not being able to shoot into the combat) too.

Quote:
 
put wounds on the dragon -(princes?)-.... were you still randomizing the hits?


WFT = d3 wounds.

--Cap
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Warlock Matik
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(Z–>)90º – (E–N²W)90ºt = 1

+1 to Cap's explanation

Furthermore, it probably would have been pointless since IIRC Dragon Princes have a 2+ ward against fire (they used to be immune but I think an FAQ changed it).
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CapAmr05
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Correct; I forgot about dragon princes' rules vs. fire. They would have had a 2+ on top of their armor saves; it would have been an ill advised shot anyways (taking out more slaves/ranks than elves).

--Cap
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j2klbs
Clanrat
Thanks so much guys! I really appreciate the insight and responses.

~Jason
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Rakashani
Warlord
Also note. The rule about firing into a unit in melee with Slaves does not give you permission to shoot at the slaves themselves which means you need to be able to fire a template in such a way that it would not hit the Slaves. (I used to consider that could *never* hit the slaves but as was pointed out to me by a friend, that would mean that Stone Throwers could almost never fire because of the random scatter so he suggested that there be at least one valid result which would miss the Slaves.)
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turmi110
Chieftain
Can I get a page reference for where it says you can't place a (general) template over friendly models? I know its specified for stonethrowers in their rules, and cannons can't fire in any way that might remotely hit friendlies, but I haven't seen any such restriction on the warpfire thrower, or flamecannons for that matter either (or salamanders).
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CapAmr05
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Quote:
 
The rule about firing into a unit in melee with Slaves does not give you permission to shoot at the slaves themselves which means you need to be able to fire a template in such a way that it would not hit the Slaves.


I don't think this is correct; that's not outlined anywhere in the 'Life is Cheap'/'shooting into combat' writeup for slaves that I recall.

^_^ The whole point of shooting into the slaves' combat is to kill some of them, and as an added bonus maybe an enemy or two. ;)

--Cap
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Rakashani
Warlord
BRB, p.39. Section heading is Shooting into Combat.

Second paragraph says...

"Some war machine weapons, particularly those that use templates, can accidentally hit friends whilst aiming at the enemy. The key word here is 'accidentally' -- you canot purposefully aim a template so that some of your models will be hit."

Life is Cheap gives you explicit permission to violate the first paragraph (you can shoot into combat that only involves slaves on your side) but it does nothing to address the second paragraph.
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CapAmr05
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True, but with a warpfire thrower being directly behind slaves in the combat with taller enemy, inwhich you'd like to shoot; you've got no other way to shoot the enemy than going straight through slaves; if your WFT acts up and only shoots 2" (instead of say 6, 8 or 10) hitting a majority of slaves you can't be faulted on that; as it was not your intent.

Saying that you always have to place your template in such a way that it will never hit friendly targets (slaves) is incorrect, at least for the WFT, for the other template weapons I'll partially agree with you (range could pull the max distance of the template onto slaves also, but would not stop you from shooting).

Life is cheap allows us to bypass both restrictions; becasue both types of shooting can be done into combat.

The first paragraph covers conventional shooting. The second paragraph you've cited covers shooting (nonskaven) template weapons into combat.

Both types of skaven shooting (BS and artillery) can shoot into combat, even if slaves get caught in the cross fire.

You've been tricked :( by a man-thing.

--Cap
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Rakashani
Warlord
Am I forgetting some portion of Life Is Cheap that will allow you to violate the second paragraph?

As I said, talking with the local gaming group we agreed that, as with Stone Throwers, if there is a viable combination of dice which results in the template missing the Slaves all together (e.g. if the front rank of the Slaves is 9" forward, a 10 would result in missing the Slaves) then you can claim to "accidentally" have hit the Slaves (as you would if you dropped a Plague Mortar on the unit and it then drifted back at your Slaves).

I don't recall any wording that would allow you to place a template that could not miss the Slaves though.

I'm also not aware of any wording that makes a WFT template any different from any other template weapon. Now, agreed that I don't value my Slaves all that much. Life IS Cheap after all. But I also don't like being beaten with the new BRB since it's so much heavier these days.
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CapAmr05
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Quote:
 
Am I forgetting some portion of Life Is Cheap that will allow you to violate the second paragraph?


Ok, again, the second paragraph is still talking about a different type of shooting (templates), but shooting none-the-less.

Regular armies cannot place a template shot so that it will hit their friendly troops, but if it scatters into friendlies, then oops (thus the 'accidently' clause).

Skaven templates may be placed in such a way; following the Life is Cheap rules; that the template does touch some slaves(in combat) because the main aim is to kill enemy troops. Ofcourse you should endeavor to cover more enemy than you do slaves (if any slaves at all need be covered), but in the case of a linear-random range WFT, you've got no choice except for the line (and just hope you roll into more enemy than slaves [if any]).

Now I'm not saying you should place a template so that it covers 12 slaves and only 1 dwarf; but using life is cheap (skaven may shoot into combat with slaves) you can pretty much put that template where you like (provided the restrictions on range distance).

--Cap
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Yobtar
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CapAmr05
Jan 12 2011, 05:44 PM
Quote:
 
Am I forgetting some portion of Life Is Cheap that will allow you to violate the second paragraph?


Ok, again, the second paragraph is still talking about a different type of shooting (templates), but shooting none-the-less.

Regular armies cannot place a template shot so that it will hit their friendly troops, but if it scatters into friendlies, then oops (thus the 'accidently' clause).

Skaven templates may be placed in such a way; following the Life is Cheap rules; that the template does touch some slaves(in combat) because the main aim is to kill enemy troops. Ofcourse you should endeavor to cover more enemy than you do slaves (if any slaves at all need be covered), but in the case of a linear-random range WFT, you've got no choice except for the line (and just hope you roll into more enemy than slaves [if any]).

Now I'm not saying you should place a template so that it covers 12 slaves and only 1 dwarf; but using life is cheap (skaven may shoot into combat with slaves) you can pretty much put that template where you like (provided the restrictions on range distance).

--Cap

+1
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How can we have a 9 page FAQ?
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Chitterfitz
Warlord
At my game club its pretty mcuh been deemed you cannot place a cannon shot if there is a unit within 20" of your target going in a straight line(so you don't "accidently" hit your own unit with a cannon shot). I don't entirely agree with this but its how our tournaments play and such.
Looking for the Limited Edition Skaven Standard Bearer. PM if you know where i can get one.
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