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W. Pistols and Warpstone Weapons
Topic Started: 30th December 2010 - 05:33 AM (1,522 Views)
Razuli
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Grey Seer
So I was experimenting with different weapon combinations on cheiftans in my army and I ran into a few questions regarding warplock pistols...

1.) The rules say they follow the rules for pistols, but the FAQ changed the magic attacks of warpstone weapons so that they are simply magic weapons, the rules for pistols allow a character to wield a pistol as if it is a second weapon, but a character cannot duel wield a weapon if one is magical, does one rule override the other?

2.)Regardless of the answer to #1, does warpstone weapon apply to attacks made with a pistol in close combat or only range attacks made with the pistol?

3.)Would scavenge pile poison work on them as close combat weapons if the warpstone weapons only applied to ranged attacks or would the fact that one part of the weapon being magical prevent the poison from being applied at all?
skavenmatt,Sep 11 2010
10:05 PM
Playing skaven to minimize randomness is like going to prom with your sister, you can do it if you really want, but in the end everyone will still laugh even if you do get lucky.


Clanlord Trask
18th April 2011 - 03:46 AM
I always take at least one Warpfire Thrower. You can't always rely on your opponent to do massive damage to your troops. Sometimes, you just have to do a job yourself.

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PezCat
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Irrepressible Anklebiter
As I read the rules, here's how I would answer these:

1) The Warplock Pistol is your lone magic weapon. Unless there's an errata or rule that says you can have more, you're stuck here. Were there an allowance to use the pistol as a "paired" weapon, you could get away with it. Sadly, not allowed as far as I know.

2) Yes - the whole thing counts as magical. You're not just pistol-whipping, you're pulling the trigger at point blank.

3) I don't recall reading anything that poison and magic are mutually exclusive. As I read it, it would "shoot" magical, and "melee" both magical and poisoned. There may be a rules ruling I am unaware of that debunks this, but this is how it reads.
8th Ed: 2-0-0
Last Game: 1500, Vampire Counts, Win - Tabled on Turn 5

Self-Detonations This Game: Warp Lightning Cannon (Turn 1), Ratling Gun (Turn 2), Vampire via miscast (Turn 4), Warlock Engineer via miscast (Turn 4), Poisoned Wind Mortar (Turn 4).

Note: Vampire's Miscast took 4 zombies, 1 skeleton, and 3 skavenslaves with him. Doomwheel did not die, but did wound itself on Turn 4.
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Razuli
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Grey Seer
PezCat
Dec 30 2010, 05:39 AM
3) I don't recall reading anything that poison and magic are mutually exclusive. As I read it, it would "shoot" magical, and "melee" both magical and poisoned. There may be a rules ruling I am unaware of that debunks this, but this is how it reads.

I didnt notice that they also FAQ'd Poision the the univeral rules instead of the army book rules.
skavenmatt,Sep 11 2010
10:05 PM
Playing skaven to minimize randomness is like going to prom with your sister, you can do it if you really want, but in the end everyone will still laugh even if you do get lucky.


Clanlord Trask
18th April 2011 - 03:46 AM
I always take at least one Warpfire Thrower. You can't always rely on your opponent to do massive damage to your troops. Sometimes, you just have to do a job yourself.

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tbone
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Grey Seer
Poison only works for mundane weapons not magical weapons. And since warpstone weapons are now considered full fleged magic weapons, they will not benefit from poison (the entry in the BRB for poison says it doesn't work on magical weapons).
Tbone's Nasty Rats
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PezCat
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Irrepressible Anklebiter
My mistake. I figured there'd be something somewhere that made my guess wrong, just couldn't actually FIND it. Not the first time, won't be the last! :P
8th Ed: 2-0-0
Last Game: 1500, Vampire Counts, Win - Tabled on Turn 5

Self-Detonations This Game: Warp Lightning Cannon (Turn 1), Ratling Gun (Turn 2), Vampire via miscast (Turn 4), Warlock Engineer via miscast (Turn 4), Poisoned Wind Mortar (Turn 4).

Note: Vampire's Miscast took 4 zombies, 1 skeleton, and 3 skavenslaves with him. Doomwheel did not die, but did wound itself on Turn 4.
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hotwarplead
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eater of rules
upon rereading the Pistol rules in the Core Rule Book, I am really not liking this new "is a magical weapon" even more.

Waplock Pistol, uses the Pistol Rules and is a Magic Weapon
Pistol rules state that they use the Additional Hand Weapon Rules
Additional Hand Weapon/Paired Weapons is its own weapon rule and states that It can not be used with a Magic Weapon.
So pick one,
A ) you get the additional attack (dont think that works, but rules as is you may be able to argue it) that is a Magic Weapon that has AP

B ) you get your base attacks with a magic weapon that has AP (I would say this one is the correct one, but that is just me)

or

C ) since its a Magic Weapon and you cant have a Magical Additional Hand Weapon, only get the ranged part of the pistol and have to use the hand weapon that you have (this is only good for warlords and Fangleaders, I dont like this answer & it sucks, but it may be the correct one just like A & B may be the correct answer)
there is no Skaven Dentist
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Warlock Matik
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(Z–>)90º – (E–N²W)90ºt = 1

I believe that the correct answer is that in combat it functions exactly like an AHW (+1A at base strength) but grants the model magical attacks. I'll repost my reasoning from a near identical discussion: http://underempire.net/index.php?showtopic=35929&st=15
Me
 
Right, so the main points are:
1) Warplock pistol is a magical weapon as per the FAQ ruling on warpstone weapons.
2) Magic weapons have to be used over mundane weapons, special or otherwise.
3) Magic weapons cannot be used with mundane weapons for parry or extra attack.
4) The pistol in combat is an additional hand weapon which requires a normal handweapon first.

So points 3) and 4) contradict themselves, leaving us in this mess.

Or do they?

Closer reading of the BRB magic weapon rules gives:
Quote:
 
a magic weapon cannot be used alongside an additional hand weapon

But the pistol isn't being used alongside an additional hand weapon, it is the additional hand weapon. The ruling stops you taking a normal magic sword and buying an AHW and gaining an extra attack, but it does not stop you having a magical AHW and using it with your basic hand weapon.



I still feel, however, that GW should simply errata warpstone weapons to simply grant the special rule 'Magical Attacks' rather than the way it's worded now. Saves a lot confusion.

(Oh, and by the way hotwarplead, pistols in combat don't benefit from AP, that's in 'shooting' mode only ;) )
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hotwarplead
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eater of rules
Warlock Matik
Jan 6 2011, 07:30 PM

(Oh, and by the way hotwarplead, pistols in combat don't benefit from AP, that's in 'shooting' mode only  ;) )

Don't have my book on me, so could you please show ref that its for shots only?
Seeing as other melee weapons have AP, such as the Ogre Kingdoms Ogre Club and the DE Beastmaster's Scourge.
there is no Skaven Dentist
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Warlock Matik
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(Z–>)90º – (E–N²W)90ºt = 1

hotwarplead
Jan 6 2011, 08:48 PM
Warlock Matik
Jan 6 2011, 07:30 PM

(Oh, and by the way hotwarplead, pistols in combat don't benefit from AP, that's in 'shooting' mode only  ;) )

Don't have my book on me, so could you please show ref that its for shots only?
Seeing as other melee weapons have AP, such as the Ogre Kingdoms Ogre Club and the DE Beastmaster's Scourge.

Certainly :) On the weapons page (pg91 BRB) the profile for pistol has '(shooting)' underneath it, it then goes on to say that in CC it follows the same rules for an AHW, and the AHW statline doesn't include AP. For comparison look at the brace of pistols - it has two stalines, one for shooting and one for CC: the shooting one has AP, the CC one doesn't.

I wasn't saying you can't get AP in combat (biting and weeping blades show that), just that the pistol loses that ability once in combat. ;)
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Plague Priest Phebrickid
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'Embrace Pestilence!'
It is shooting only because it is is only mentioned as armour piercing in the stat for the pistol when shooting (eg. in 40K a guy with a melta does not benefit from AP1 in combat . . . ^_^ )
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hotwarplead
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eater of rules
Warlock Matik
Jan 6 2011, 09:00 PM
Certainly :) On the weapons page (pg91 BRB) the profile for pistol has '(shooting)' underneath it, it then goes on to say that in CC it follows the same rules for an AHW, and the AHW statline doesn't include AP. For comparison look at the brace of pistols - it has two stalines, one for shooting and one for CC: the shooting one has AP, the CC one doesn't.

I wasn't saying you can't get AP in combat (biting and weeping blades show that), just that the pistol loses that ability once in combat. ;)

Warplock pistols, Use rules for Pistol, AND subject to shorter range AP and UA, See Jezzails for rule.... So, yes AP in Melee
there is no Skaven Dentist
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Warlock Matik
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(Z–>)90º – (E–N²W)90ºt = 1

Hmm, fair point, since pistols have always been AP including it in the description is pointless unless it was meant to apply to CC as well, I think you may have swayed me :lol: The shorter range bugs me still: in 7th ed normal pistols were 8" range, then they upped it in 8th but left our pistols unchanged, so we went from 2" extra to 2" shorter than everyone else <_<
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Razuli
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Grey Seer
Warlock Matik
Jan 6 2011, 07:30 PM
I believe that the correct answer is that in combat it functions exactly like an AHW (+1A at base strength) but grants the model magical attacks. I'll repost my reasoning from a near identical discussion: http://underempire.net/index.php?showtopic=35929&st=15
Me
 
Right, so the main points are:
1) Warplock pistol is a magical weapon as per the FAQ ruling on warpstone weapons.
2) Magic weapons have to be used over mundane weapons, special or otherwise.
3) Magic weapons cannot be used with mundane weapons for parry or extra attack.
4) The pistol in combat is an additional hand weapon which requires a normal handweapon first.

So points 3) and 4) contradict themselves, leaving us in this mess.

Or do they?

Closer reading of the BRB magic weapon rules gives:
Quote:
 
a magic weapon cannot be used alongside an additional hand weapon

But the pistol isn't being used alongside an additional hand weapon, it is the additional hand weapon. The ruling stops you taking a normal magic sword and buying an AHW and gaining an extra attack, but it does not stop you having a magical AHW and using it with your basic hand weapon.



I still feel, however, that GW should simply errata warpstone weapons to simply grant the special rule 'Magical Attacks' rather than the way it's worded now. Saves a lot confusion.

(Oh, and by the way hotwarplead, pistols in combat don't benefit from AP, that's in 'shooting' mode only ;) )

Unfortunatley, however, I think this will be too hard for most opponents to swallow, especially since most people view skaven as "OP and breaking most of the rules already."
skavenmatt,Sep 11 2010
10:05 PM
Playing skaven to minimize randomness is like going to prom with your sister, you can do it if you really want, but in the end everyone will still laugh even if you do get lucky.


Clanlord Trask
18th April 2011 - 03:46 AM
I always take at least one Warpfire Thrower. You can't always rely on your opponent to do massive damage to your troops. Sometimes, you just have to do a job yourself.

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hotwarplead
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eater of rules
Plague Preist Phebrickid
Jan 6 2011, 09:02 PM
It is shooting only because it is is only mentioned as armour piercing in the stat for the pistol when shooting (eg. in 40K a guy with a melta does not benefit from AP1 in combat . . . ^_^ )

under that logic, its only a warpston weapon when being fired.
"Pg 33: a warplock pistol follows the rules for pistol execpt that it has a range of X", is Armour Piercing, Uses Unstable Ammunition(see page lxv) and is a Warpstone Weapon"
Not stating when, and other Melee weapons have it, so it isn't just for shots. So Put it on a Warlord is like a Halberd that you can use a shield with (for Armour only)
there is no Skaven Dentist
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