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| Skaven vs Lizardmen help and another question; need help against lizardmen | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 21st December 2010 - 05:02 PM (4,528 Views) | |
| Kritch Wormtail | 21st December 2010 - 05:02 PM Post #1 |
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Clanrat
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Hello all, iv'e been playing some lizardmen lately and have only beat them once out of 3 times, not that bad, but still dissapointing considering how amazing skaven are! in this post im gonna tell you my current army list and see what you think and how i could change it in terms of magic items and unti sizes etc..... This also leads on to my other question, i think i am right in thinking that in 8th the lords can make up to 25% of your army? if this is correct does the screaming bell count towards this 25%. Lords: Grey seer and screaming bell 240 and 200 Warlord with fellblade and bonebreaker 255 Heroes: Plague Priest with doom rocket 155 (i think) Warlock engineer with dispell and power stone 130 Core: 20 stormvermin with halberds and a grand banner of clan superiority + full command 190 20 clanrats with spears, shields, full command and pwm 185 20 clanrats with spears, shields, full command and wft 190 20 clanrats with spears, shields, full command 120 20 slaves with full command 60 (i think) 37 giant rats with 7 packmasters 167 Special: 3 rat ogres, with 1 master bred and a master moulder 168 plague monks, with full command and plague banner 195 Rare: plagueclaw catapult 100 i havnt added it up but its about 2150 i think. this is all my models. my opponent has a unit of temple guard, 2 saurus warrior units, a slaan mage priest. 2 units of skink skirmishers with blowpipes a stegadon and a salamander and a small skink mage called tetty'eko o something the reason behind my banner choices are 1 the grand banner is there because his saurus warrior units only have 3 ranks, 1 dead and thats 2. so ill get its affect, and for the plague banner, because with 31 attacks and re rolls on to hit and to wound is to good to pass up, it was that or the storm banner. if this army is cheesy...... well i have no idea what that means and have seen the term used on the forum someplace else and will change the list if it is.... kritch wormtail, signing out |
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| turmi110 | 21st December 2010 - 06:38 PM Post #2 |
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Chieftain
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ALL upgrades, mounts, equipment etc count towards the limit, so yeah, the screaming bell counts towards your lord points allocation. You can have up to 25% of your points on lords, AND 25% of your points on heroes. Also the plague priest cannot take the doomrocket. Doomrocket is for clan skryre only. I'd stick in another engineer with no wizard upgrades, and give him the rocket. Then you won't feel so bad about skitterleaping him into a flank to fire off the rocket before getting peppered by darts. Slaves can only have pawleader (champ) and musician. 20 of them plus their available command doesn't come up to 60 points, so check that again. Also you want more slaves. 20 of them can chase skinks around, but they wouldn't even slow down saurus warriors. 50+ slaves in a block within your generals range should hold long enough to get a template into the saurus warriors. Tetto'eko isn't worth it for his points imo. I would use him for fun every now and then, but he costs almost as much as a naked slann, and is only lvl 2, and much harder to protect. On that note, how does he protect tetto'eko? He doesn't have ranked up skinks, and if he puts him with saurus warriors, then he has to poke off to the side of the unit, easy to charge and direct attacks to his measly toughness. ws2 t2 w2, 5+ ward, with that even clanrats would even rip him apart. If tetto'eko ever sees combat, he's dead *hint* You have to be careful of your weapon teams, skinks have a threat range of 24 inches (march 12 inch, 12 inch range). They'd be hitting on 6's, but poisoned. A unit of 10 skirmishers comes to about the same price as a single weapon team. Salamanders are like weaker, but far more maneuverable WFT. They can march 12 inches, and still shoot. They are the bane of ranked up units, and low leadership troops alike, thats what we mainly consist of. I would put the salamander near the top of the priority list to kill. A single Warp lightning might deal to it. If not, then fire another one at it. What type of stegadon does he usually run with? There are a few variants, engine, warspear, or ancient/baby steg. Although none of those variants would last long against your felblade warlord, you just have to get him there. What lore does he usually run with his slann? His slann would form the bulk of his strategy. How big is the temple guard unit? Note that the slann is infantry, so he can be turned into a clanrat via the dreaded 13th spell. You want this spell. Use it when his temple guard have been weakened in number. If you have trouble getting it off, and don't mind being cheesy, then take the powerscroll with your seer. Unfortunately you have too many points stored up in the lord allotment. I'd drop the bell, keep the seer and fellblade bonebreaker warlord. If you run him with the ROgres he should be reasonably safe from skink poisoned shooting for a while, and you don't have to worry about many templates (salamander + whatever the slann may bring). Oh, you need a BSB, no matter what army you face. You said those were all your models, so you may not be able to include him just yet, but he should be top of your 'to buy' list. If you didn't have stormvermin you could probably get away with using the stormvermin banner bearer as your BSB for a while. Clanrat units are too small. 30 min size, if you run spears (which you do) you may even want them bigger. These cannot even come close to hurting saurus warriors in 1v1 battle, you'll need to hit them with another unit in the flank, preferably the stormvermin, or plague monks. The ROgres are probably too busy chasing the steg to get the warlord in swinging distance. If the warlord is separate from the ROgres, then they'd be ideal for a flank on saurus warriors. Plague banner is a solid choice, I love it. Especially useful when you need to roll 5's to wound, as it greatly increases their damage output. Your list is character heavy. I wouldn't call it cheesy though, it lacks the masses of slaves, the double abom whammy, and in fact the only rare you have is the PCC, oft considered one of the poorer rare choices we can take. If you take the powerscroll on your seer, then its cheesy value will leap drastically though, so take that into account if you're worried about being classified as cheese. Hope something there helped. He doesn't sound like he has many units, so getting a combo charge on him shouldn't be too difficult. Don't be too hasty to charge, charging is situational in 8th, not the gamewinner it was in 7th. |
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| Kritch Wormtail | 21st December 2010 - 07:51 PM Post #3 |
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Clanrat
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Wow couldnt of asked for a better reply, will try and answer your questions and respond to most of the points. in terms of dropping the bell, im fine with that except i dont have a model for the grey seer, i could use a high elf mage though. i can't get any slaves for a while. and when it comes to my 60 clanrats would you say i should make them two units of 30 or just keep them as is. he uses his tetto'eko pretty badly, only using him for the boost on the comet spell (meaning he uses the lore of heavens, he also loves chainlightning and the thunderbolt <_< ) and to re deploy his units, mucking up my strategy. hes only played him in one game and in that game he deployed him solo. i know, stupid. i dealed with one of his skink units easily with a plague spell. to be fair he rolled pretty badly, but it still did well. and with that cold blooded rule and being in the proximity of the general, didnt panic. in terms of the stegadon he uses the one with the balista on top. his temple guard unit is only 20. if the max size is less it may be about 2 men less. i can use my stormvermin bannerman as a BSB because they arent assembled yet and im already missing one! subbing them in with high elf spearmen! i forgot that he also has a unit of 5+ cold one skink things with spears. for christmas i was planning on asking for skinktch, doomwheel, stormvemin, plaguemonks (10 go to my current unit and 10 to censer bearers), and the normal skaven warlord as my BSB. i would get a few from that list and buy the rest after christmas. so basically what would u recomend me to get in terms of the next five kits. |
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| CurseoftheHornedSheep | 21st December 2010 - 08:50 PM Post #4 |
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Chieftain
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I'd agree with all of the advice already given, but I can still add a little bit. When playing against Lizardmen: NUKE THE SLANN UNIT. Not even kidding. You're going to need some hard-hitters, but killing that fat-arse toad should be one of your top priorities. I think the furnace is a much better option against Lizardmen than the bell. It helps to have that additional punch in close combat, and it can work wonders against Saurus and Temple Guard blocks. I'd drop the catapult for a warp-lightning cannon. The catapult isn't really built for Lizardmen in my opinion, since their high toughness is more of a concern than their armor. A well-placed warp-lightning cannon shot will devastate Saurus and Temple Guard units. I wouldn't take spears on my clanrats. Lizardmen infantry is some of the best in the game; don't expect to win through getting kills. As previously stated, instead of trying to buff up your infantry, try to get more of it. For Skaven, sustaining casualties is more important than getting the most killing potential out of each rat. You should take warp lightning on your warlock. It can do some serious damage to Saurus cavalry (meh) and salamanders (KILL THE SALAMANDERS, srs bsns). Condensers help this--I might consider taking one plus a doomrocket on that engineer you've got now instead of your current build, but it's ultimately up to you. The Sacred Banner of the Horned Rat is kind of awesome. As far as your next five kits go? Hmm... what do you think your price range is? That'd help me to answer that question... but I'm going to go ahead and warn you, I'm probably going to say Island of Blood.
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Despite all my rage, I am still just a rat in a cage... THIRTEENTH SPELL CASTS: 13 KILLS: 72 Empire Swordsmen, 12 Greatswords, 1 Warrior Priest, 2 Captains of the Empire, 1 Whatever the Empire's lord-level mage is called, 36 Dwarf Hammerers, 2 Thanes, 1 Dwarf Lord on Shieldbearers, 1 Dwarf Lord, 19 Saurus Temple Guard, 14 Chaos Chosen, 12 Glade Guard Fellblade Kills: 3 Dwarven war machines, 1 Dwarf Runelord, 1 Dark Elf Hyrdra, 1 High Elf Sun Dragon, 1 High Elf Dragon Mage | |
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| Kritch Wormtail | 21st December 2010 - 10:17 PM Post #5 |
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Clanrat
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my opponent always keeps his temple guard at the back of the board. its so annoying!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i can't do anything about this, as u put it, 'fat toad'. i really don't want to get another island of blood as i already have one. so can we not have that as one the the 5 plz. my price range would be up to £20, but one model can go up to £40 lets say. (so that means me getting a plague furnace!). |
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| Skreetz the Fabricator | 21st December 2010 - 10:25 PM Post #6 |
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Skyre warlock/converter
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IMHO you need more slaves, either a couple of boxes of clanrats (and going through all your clanrats and making sure the ones without armor are in the slave unit) or something else that has a good model/price ratio and goes on a 20mm base (like gnoblars). |
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| Warlock Matik | 21st December 2010 - 10:35 PM Post #7 |
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(Z–>)90º – (E–N²W)90ºt = 1
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A trick you may want to try for that: take a non-wizard engineer with the Brass Orb and skitterleap him next to the unit. Chuck the Orb and profit. You might even be lucky enough to get the Slann. Of course, it's always easier said than done, and with Skryre weapons doubly so Still, the Orb will work wonders against Lizardmen (not Skinks, but everything else).
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| turmi110 | 22nd December 2010 - 02:56 AM Post #8 |
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Chieftain
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Yes-yes, can't forget the brass orb. Saurus have initiative of 1, the cavalry and temple guard, and the slann himself have an initiative of 2. You can hope for a failed LoS roll from the frog, but if you don't, so long as you take some TG down its all been worth it. Solo Tetto'eko? Thats asking for trouble. Slann CAN go solo, though still not recommended, but they have a ton of defensive disciplines available to keep him alive. Tetto does not. If his opponent had any bs based shooting unit, he wouldn't last long. I'd say throwing warp lightning at a solo tetto might be a higher priority than the salamander, but I don't know, those salamanders are vicious, and the slann most likely takes up all of tetto's dice anyway.
Skink cold one riders? AFAIK they were only released in the lustria campaign book, designed for the 6th ed army book, or something like that. He can't take them anymore, unless of course his opponent (you) agrees to it. Apart from that I don't know anything about them, except that they must be worse than the current saurus cold one riders. Even 5 saurus cold one riders aren't scary. They're considered one of the weakest choices for lizardmen, probably just above the razordon. Cost too much, and steadfast has neutered cavalry effectiveness. Just weather their charge and bring them down in a battle of attrition. 1 COR = 7 spear shield clanrats, each casualty he takes will reduce their effectiveness. You can't really afford to throw anything ranged at them, you've got more important targets (TG, sally, even normal saurus warriors) 20 Temple guard is huge. I agree with the Nuke It tactic. The win/loss of any lizardmen army almost exclusively hinges on the slann. You will have to destroy this unit lizard by lizard. They will never break, or panic so long as the toad is alive. (OK, statistically they can, but they have something like a 99% chance of passing any leadership test). Bring it down to at least 14 and you have an average chance of turning them all into clanrats with a single dreaded 13th. If the slann has becalming cogitation, then unless you have a power scroll, then you cannot get this spell off unless you have dice weighted to roll 5's. (becalming cogitation, a single enemy wizard within 24 inches discards any power dice that roll a 6). You could sit exactly 24 inches away from the temple guard, which puts you just outside the 24 inch range of becalming cogitation, then you can cast the dreaded 13th on the TG unit. Should be fairly easy to do if he likes to sit them at the back of the board stationary. Plague is a waste on skinks. Sure, you kill 66% of the unit, but unless he is running a very large block of them, you're not killing much. Statistically, if you plague a unit of 10 skirmishers, thats only 6 or 7 skinks, which is less than 50 points worth. If you can, wither the TG unit, then plague them. Even if you don't wither the 20 lizard TG unit, you will kill 6-7 of them. 6-7 TG >>> 6-7 skinks. You can panic skinks and skink based units (except stegs), but only if they are more than 12 inches from the slann. Don't rely on panicking anything else in the army. Run your 60 clanrats as two units of 30. That way if they do get charged by saurus warriors they stand a decent chance of being steadfast for a turn, where hopefully you have something to countercharge that unit in the flank Buying another box of monks is a great idea, especially converting 10 to PCB. These are awesome against saurus warriors, as they are one of the few things with a lower initiative than PCB, and worthy of throwing such a glass cannon at. If you do get some and plan to use them, keep them away from the skinks, or better yet, screen them. PCB skirmish, so the skinks will have to be in close range in order to fire a single load of poisoned shots, but still, with a 12 inch march thats not too difficult. (ps, I'm a fan of the ghoul + monk PCB conversion, plan to do my own at some point). I'd probably just buy another battalion box if I were you. You get your 20 monks, you get another 20 slaves, and 20 clannies, all of which you need, and ugly ROgres and more giant rats come pretty much free with the deal. As well as that, the new PCC/WLC kit and abom should also be on your list, further down the line as you'll have to wait anyway. Another engineer is also a solid buy. Personally I plan to buy Ikit when he comes out for my tooled up engineer and use my IoB for the basic doomrocket/brass orb or whatever engineer. Second the gnoblars as slaves idea. I also like flaggelants for my slaves, but they are far more expensive, getting only 10 in a box compared to the 20 or 24 gnoblars. If you don't want to run a mixed set of slaves, you will have to buy more clanrats. |
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| Kritch Wormtail | 22nd December 2010 - 10:54 AM Post #9 |
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Clanrat
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thanks for all the advice. im not sure about the cold one things, but they are so crap i took out for and he charged one of which was from my grey seer on bell! for christmas i would like to get things i dont have and if i plan my buys wisely i can get to 2800 + points. alowing me for 700 + point lords so my plan is possibly. thanquol and boneripper, doomwheel, monks, skintch and stormvermin. this way i can or wont be too far off 2800 and the addition of thanquol and boneripper would be awesome. fits with the theme of rat ogres as thanquol has an ogre. my warlord/fellblade/ has one. and then i have three. i must say i hate the batttalion ogres. my big question which i have never understood is why slaves? im not saying they are bad. but with some advice on how to use them etc. i might be more keen on getting more. |
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| Warlock Matik | 22nd December 2010 - 03:05 PM Post #10 |
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(Z–>)90º – (E–N²W)90ºt = 1
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Simply put, slaves are the ultimate tar pit. At two points a model you can have huge units for very little cost, meaning you should be able to out-rank any other unit and keep steadfast forever. And with the General and BSB in proximity, you end up with a steadfast, Ld 10 unit with a re-roll; meaning that they're going to sit there in combat with your opponent's pricy unit and there's nothing he can do to get out of it. And then you can freely shoot into said combat, blowing his unit away while he's stuck slowly munching his way through the slaves. Well, that's the theory of them anyway. Other people will probably cover more of their points, but this is the overarching idea of them. |
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| Skreetz the Fabricator | 22nd December 2010 - 03:24 PM Post #11 |
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Skyre warlock/converter
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how to use slaves isnt that hard, get something around 40 (or more) of them in a unit. Get the slaves in close combat with something more expensive than them. Shoot warpfire throwers/ratling guns/PWM,PCC/cannon at the close combat until the slaves break or the other unit dies. If the slaves break roll to see how much damage they do when they explode. It really helps if the slaves are within range of the bsb and general but its not required. They can also be used to secure flanks, destroy O&G fanatics, and to slow down scarry CC enemy units until you can deal with them (it takes time to go through ~40 slaves in CC). All for an 80pt unit. |
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| Kritch Wormtail | 22nd December 2010 - 03:37 PM Post #12 |
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Clanrat
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cool, im beginning to understand slaves. instead of more stormvermin i would get a bsb in the form of a skaven warlord, just use him as chieftain BSB |
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| CurseoftheHornedSheep | 22nd December 2010 - 05:18 PM Post #13 |
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Chieftain
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My local Lizards player brings this block of 19 Temple Guard, an Oldblood, and a Slann on a consistent basis. See my signature... Thirteenth Spell + cannon and Brass Orb for clean-up is a tactic I like if he's playing super-conservatively with his Slann. Brass Orb was made for Lizards and Dwarves. If I were you I might consider saving some Christmas money for the Hell Pit Abomination model being released in January. I know that's what I'm doing, but since you're starting off with a smaller army, I'm unsure. I'd definitely suggest more slaves, though--I just use the dirtier-looking unarmored clanrats from the clanrat box. I converted a BSB out of one of the Stormvermin from the box, actually. It's really easy, but unfortunately he's so top-heavy that you need to magnetize his tray/base to stop him from falling over under the weight of his massive battle standard. Re-ranking Stormverming isn't fun.
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Despite all my rage, I am still just a rat in a cage... THIRTEENTH SPELL CASTS: 13 KILLS: 72 Empire Swordsmen, 12 Greatswords, 1 Warrior Priest, 2 Captains of the Empire, 1 Whatever the Empire's lord-level mage is called, 36 Dwarf Hammerers, 2 Thanes, 1 Dwarf Lord on Shieldbearers, 1 Dwarf Lord, 19 Saurus Temple Guard, 14 Chaos Chosen, 12 Glade Guard Fellblade Kills: 3 Dwarven war machines, 1 Dwarf Runelord, 1 Dark Elf Hyrdra, 1 High Elf Sun Dragon, 1 High Elf Dragon Mage | |
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| Kritch Wormtail | 22nd December 2010 - 05:47 PM Post #14 |
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Clanrat
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my presents hve already been bought so.... gonna have to wait till christmas (keep your fingers crossed!). i know im getting thanquol after tho cos its order only i have plans for his lizardmen and i think im goin to brass orb his temple guard and warplightning his tetto'eko. as for his saurus warrior units im planning to keep them engaged with my beefy blocks of 30 clanrats and my unit of 20 slaves and hit him on the flank with my stormvermin and plague monks. using the grand banner and the plague banner to really give me that edge in combat. as for the stegadon, my doomwheel should be able to handle that. withmy slaves closer just incase i have to take the lightning hits. when it comes to the salamander, i'll try to take it out from a ramge using my PWM, PCC and warplightning. that only leaves the cold ones and the skinks. ive still got by rat ogres and my massive unit of giant rats. and then ive got 10 censer bearers for christmas. what should i do with thanquol and my lord/fellblade/bonebreaker. i.e. what unit should i put them in, and should i put them solo. also what units should i target. with my WFT i will fire it on saurus units enganged with my slaves and when all the enemy units are engaged will just go for the skinks. notice: no bell. gonna use when my army is bigger. and as for getting an abomination, i don't really want it. maybe when my army is big. looking at the other armies on GW, i realised how much i loved skaven compared to the others. skaven will reign supreme! |
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| James100 | 22nd December 2010 - 07:51 PM Post #15 |
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Chieftain
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Wait till the new skavens release and buy hellpits and wlc and if its 3000 points you could be mean and have 2 hellpits and 3 cannon and with the cannons just point and aim at his fat toad. |
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Still, the Orb will work wonders against Lizardmen (not Skinks, but everything else).


