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Screaming Bell Deployment Width
5x11 10 (34.5%)
7x8 19 (65.5%)
Total Votes: 29
Screaming Bell Deployment Width
Topic Started: 15th December 2010 - 04:09 AM (1,726 Views)
nemesis1020
Clanrat
Should I deploy the Screaming Bell (deployed with 40 Clanrats) 5x11 or 7x8?
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ratboy1018
Member Avatar
Lab rat hard at work
7 or wider. You are unbreakable.
hannanibal
 
Ki Ko Ka Ko Ki (That's the sound of a transformer transforming)

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Scarecrow
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Egggggggssssssss!!!!!!!
ratboy1018
Dec 15 2010, 06:50 AM
7 or wider. You are unbreakable.

+1

don't know why you wouldn't.
TRADE
I'm looking for Dark Eldar to convert into DE. Also looking for bretonnia lances and halberds. If anyone has any they would be interested in trading PM me and we can work something out.


"And, most vivid of all, there was the dramatic epic of the rats––the scampering army of obscene vermin which had burst forth from the castle three months after the tragedy that doomed it to desertion––the lean, filthy, ravenous army which had swept all before it and devoured fowl, cats, dogs, hogs, sheep and even two hapless human beings before its fury was spent. Around that unforgettable rodent army a whole separate cycle of myths revolves, for it scattered among the village homes and brought curses and horrors in its train."

– The Rats In The Walls, H.P. Lovecraft
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Innerwolf
Chieftain
5x11. You are getting less incoming attacks, so your tarpit will live longer. In addition it's a great place to deploy a BSB, which will be intargetable in the second rank.

They are clanrats, you don't expect them to do that much damage. Horde-ing them won't achieve a lot.
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Paricidas
Doomwheel Driver
Horde, if you charge somebody you do more damage and are unbreakable.

If you are getting charged next turn you can reform in your turn to be charged in the flank and you will lose less models (+ the BSB and the grey seer are safe, at least for a while)
Ceterum censeo Altdorfem esse delendam
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Atropos
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Warpstone Addict
I personally go for horde when deploying my bell.

Unbreakable is the thing; although this is the last unit the enemy should be fighting in my games. I have a bunch of Slaves that make the enemy stay away from it though.

Regards.
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Rakashani
Warlord
Wait... What are you guys fielding in a Horde around this thing? This thing is Unbreakable, yes, but it is also odds to eat almost 30 casualties from ringing the bell and casting spells over a 6-turn game (assuming it survives that long). On top of that, Clanrats as melee troops suck. Your best hope is that your bell over-performs or you tarpit until you can get support from other units....

Running in clanrats I would always be 5xX or 6xX. There's not a single troop type in my LGS that fights *worse* than clanrats so the goal is to minimize incoming attacks and keep the unit alive for as long as possible.

Running horde just means that any opponent worth his salt is going to take his *much* more effective combat troops and maximize frontage against you which means you lose more troops faster.

Not to mention that you can't hide a BSB in the unit unless you're 5 or 6 wide and if you are running a nice magic banner that Chieftain can't take anything to protect himself which means he's meat the first time he finds combat.

Unless you fight armies of zombies, skinks or Bretonnian men-at-arms I believe that you're going to be hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s or worse and watching them save a bunch. Then they're going to be hitting on 3's or 4's, wounding on 2's to 4's and often leaving you no save (possibly a 6+ and then a Parry if you took shields).

Just to beat that math to death... Against empire line troops with WS3, S3, T3 ans LA/Shield 6-wide you swing 7 attacks with the champion. You hit 3.5 times, wound 1.75 times and might get 1 kill through. Run 10-wide (a horde) you swing 22 attacks, hit 11 times and wound 5.5 times or less and expect about 3 kills. If he's 5-wide he swings 9 at your unit with similar results and you rely on the bell to save you. If he can, he widens to 10 and throws 28 attacks into your unit for 14 hits, 7 wounds and 3-4 kills.

Now compare to anything worth calling troops. WS4, S4, T3 (or S3, T4) or worse, HE or WoC troops. 6-wide you still hit 3.5 times and now wound 1.16 times for less than 1 kill on odds. They turn around and hit 5+ times, wounding about 4 times and killing 2-3. Run wide you see similar results and lose about 10 models per turn (instead of the 4 from above). Why would you do this? Either way you lose the combat unless your bell performs well or you get external support. Why collect extra casualties along the way (not to mention building a unit wide enough that it makes getting into the enemy flanks harder to manage where a narrow unit just hangs him out there to dry)?
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Paricidas
Doomwheel Driver
Fighting in horde formation does NOT mean the enemy gets to attack more models. You are unbreakable and you can afford to be charged in the flank. As long as the enemy does not overrun one of your slave shields you can always present the enemy your flank. If your bell gets charged from two sides, then all is lost and nothing else matters.
Ceterum censeo Altdorfem esse delendam
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Rakashani
Warlord
I'm sorry, Paricidas, then you and your opponents are not paying attention. I can't imagine you've never seen this...

I charge you with a unit of 6x3 Chaos Warriors. I am never going to have more ranks than you and even if I did you are Unbreakable so I don't care about anything but wounds and getting 1 point more CR than you so after my first turn the first thing I do is widen frontage to match your width. Why? Because I would rather have 3 attacks per model than 1 per from the second rank. Combat Reform for the win. I am hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s and giving you a 6+/6+ *if* you bought shields. Without shields you have no save at all. If I get 2 more models into base contact with you it is worth more CR than a rank of 5 models. There is *no* downside to making an elite unit wider to match your horde. Ever.

By running 5 wide at least you limit me to 6 models in the front of my unit in base contact which is why elite 25mm models should always be run in 6-wide formations. You give me any extra room and I will *always* opt to widen and put more models into you.

Pick a different army. Against Brets you make your frontage wide enough to take charges from 3 lances at once. Ouch. Against Elves you allow them to widen frontage to put more ASF models (rerolling to hit) or just to use more of *their* horde of spearmen.

The *only* time you want to be wider than your opponent is when your troops are better. So go right ahead and run wide against those zombies, skinks and Bret peasant-only armies. Against anything else you are losing anywhere from a fraction to a lot of points of CR net not to mention increasing the number of casualties your unit takes.
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Smegmalicious


So people think the bell is actually worth taking?
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Paricidas
Doomwheel Driver
I do not claim ultimate wisom for bell using, as I do not even own such a model. All I can say from watching others using it is that to my point of view it seems best when deployed in horde formation, as for exactly the the reasons rakashani mentioned. You do not want too many of the enemy models in base contact with your unit.

A 5 wide formation only makes sense if you want your bell to be charged from the rear, if you want it to stand as long as possible it should be flankcharged. And horde armies do have smaller flanks than "normal" 5-wide units. The only reason to deploy a bell 5 wide is to hide the BSB in it OR if you expect to be charged in the front (or if you yourself charge somebody)

If a unit of 18 axewielding khorne warriors charges you from the front, it is unimportant if your bell runs horde formation or not, as it will not survive that combat.
Ceterum censeo Altdorfem esse delendam
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reddogfish77
Grey Seer
i think best combo would be wide enough to fit a warlord on bonebreaker next to bell and narrow enough that BSB in unit can hide with banner of underempire. lol....

i would prob take it in horde formation... charge it inu against something the abomb is also charging... like to see 18 CW handle that.

(i know points difference.)

on side note...

would any of you ever consider taking a plauge censor on a priest on furance... always wanted to try that. :)
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Krogholt
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Chieftain
reddogfish77
Dec 17 2010, 03:57 AM
would any of you ever consider taking a plauge censor on a priest on furance... always wanted to try that. :)

Don't do that, it is pure suicide.

Since you use the footprint of furnace for the fume-test of the Priest's censor, you will at best force 5 opponents to take fume-tests (if they are in base-to-base to the front), while at the same time forcing up to 15 fume-tests on your own unit (5 to each side, and 5 behind the furnace). It is just going to hurt yourself way more than the opponent.
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Innerwolf
Chieftain
Paricidas
Dec 17 2010, 04:27 AM
I do not claim ultimate wisom for bell using, as I do not even own such a model. All I can say from watching others using it is that to my point of view it seems best when deployed in horde formation, as for exactly the the reasons rakashani mentioned. You do not want too many of the enemy models in base contact with your unit.

A 5 wide formation only makes sense if you want your bell to be charged from the rear, if you want it to stand as long as possible it should be flankcharged. And horde armies do have smaller flanks than "normal" 5-wide units. The only reason to deploy a bell 5 wide is to hide the BSB in it OR if you expect to be charged in the front (or if you yourself charge somebody)

If a unit of 18 axewielding khorne warriors charges you from the front, it is unimportant if your bell runs horde formation or not, as it will not survive that combat.

I may be stubborn, but I will never voluntarily present a flank to my enemy. It feels completely "gamey" and destroy my suspension of disbelief.

I know you do it for the tactical advantage, but I refuse to profit from it. I doubt any general in military history showed a flank to the enemy(not counting baiting maneuvers), and neither will I.
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a.wagg


Innerwolf
Dec 17 2010, 06:53 PM
Paricidas
Dec 17 2010, 04:27 AM
I do not claim ultimate wisom for bell using, as I do not even own such a model. All I can say from watching others using it is that to my point of view it seems best when deployed in horde formation, as for exactly the the reasons rakashani mentioned. You do not want too many of the enemy models in base contact with your unit.

A 5 wide formation only makes sense if you want your bell to be charged from the rear, if you want it to stand as long as possible it should be flankcharged. And horde armies do have smaller flanks than "normal" 5-wide units. The only reason to deploy a bell 5 wide is to hide the BSB in it OR if you expect to be charged in the front (or if you yourself charge somebody)

If a unit of 18  axewielding khorne warriors charges you from the front, it is unimportant if your bell runs horde formation or not, as it will not survive that combat.

I may be stubborn, but I will never voluntarily present a flank to my enemy. It feels completely "gamey" and destroy my suspension of disbelief.

I know you do it for the tactical advantage, but I refuse to profit from it. I doubt any general in military history showed a flank to the enemy(not counting baiting maneuvers), and neither will I.

But this is exactly what a bating maneuver is, and you're complaining about honourable-ness? You're playing... skaven.
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