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Help needed fighting to fight horrible monsters
Topic Started: 1st December 2010 - 05:37 PM (1,660 Views)
reddogfish77
Grey Seer
whats the best way to deal with a shaggorth then?

also there are plenty of ways to deal with big nasties...

if you are having probs with bloodthirsters try slave hordes with 40+ models and unit of 6-10 globadiers... force him into combat with the slaves by using the stormbanner to ground him then globe to death... for full effect serve cold with a side of relish...

:)

they are nasty but i am thinking you are missing something... i would really be targeting templates like WLC at his units of elites and tarpitting big nasties... dont get into a combat that you dont want to...

i know its hard but you are sneaky skaven dammit.

also if your slaves are lasting long enough you know what to do.... get more in bigger units... also if you are having trouble forcing people into combat with slaves try giving them slings... lol... nothing more annoying than throw away units doing damage.
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xxrathammerxx
Stormvermin
Regardless of what the rules say, a quick thinking prince or mage on a dragon can't make the dragon move any faster than it already can to get it out of the way. I don't understand all the questions about if hydras can use their beastmaster's initiative or if dragons can use their rider's. They're still big, slow animals...brass orb hits and destroys everything under the template that fails the test. period.
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Bobofreak
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The Big Cheese!!
Quote:
 
Regardless of what the rules say, a quick thinking prince or mage on a dragon can't make the dragon move any faster than it already can to get it out of the way. I don't understand all the questions about if hydras can use their beastmaster's initiative or if dragons can use their rider's. They're still big, slow animals...brass orb hits and destroys everything under the template that fails the test. period.


Really who needs those pesky rules!!! LOL if you are looking to apply "Common Sense" to rules interpertations for Warhammer maybe this is not the game for you :P ,

Tbone

Page 105 of the Basic Rule Book Bottom Right Hand Corner.

"TEMPLATES

If you use a WEAPON or a SPELL that uses a template against a monster mount , both the riders and the mount are automatically hit if the monster's base is touched by the template. (note that this includes bouncing cannonballs!). In the case of a stone thrower, which inflicts hits at two different Strengths, only one model will be hit at the higher Strength (assuming that model's base is under the centre of the template). Randomize, as for a shooting attack, to see whether one of the riders or the mount is unlucky enough to take the high-Strength hit. All other models are hit at the lower strength value."


"BRASS ORB (Enchanted Item) 50Pts

One use only. In the shooting phase the user can throw the orb. Place the small round template with its centre anywhere within 8" of the character and in his line of sight. Scatter the template as you would for a stone thrower shot. Models touched by the template must take an Initiative test or be destroyed, with no saves (of any kind) allowed. Remember that a 6 is always a failure. "Look out Sir!" works as normal. If a misfire is rolled, centre the template on the model throwing the globe."

Well the Brass Orb is neither a "WEAPON" or a "SPELL" it is an "ENCHANTED ITEM" that uses a template so it does not fall under any of the template targetting rules from the the BRB and only uses the rules for the Brass Orb in the Skaven Supplement which states "AN" initiative test per model. A Prince on a Dragon is a single model


Further on page 10 of the Basic Rule Book under Charteristic Tests it states the following

"Characteristics Tests

......

Where a model(or a unit) has more than one value for the same characteristic, as is the case with calvary, for example, a characteristic test is always taken against the highest of values."


So a Dragon Prince on a Star Dragon would need to take one initiative test from the Brass Orb using the Dragon Prince's Initiative of 6 so they would need to throw the 6 to fail. This is where Warhammer and common sense part ways. :wacko:

Though if the test was failed the entire model would be removed Rider and Mount as they are a single Model as stated under the Ridden Monsters section of the BRB bottem left pg 105 (Im tired of quoting, go read it for yourself :D ) they are only targetable seperately in Hand to Hand. If something forces it to take a charateristic test or be removed and it fails the entire model would be removed.
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skavenmatt
Stormvermin
I would also recommend:
I really don't like the plague furnace and monk unit, but some people swear by it, I'd rather take more clanrats or stormvermin with weapon teams.
not using night runners and using the models you have as additional slaves or clanrats. If you have to use night runner models, use them as gutter runners with poisoned slings.
not using rattling guns, I absolutely hate them, and have always preferred warpfire even when the rattling guns were autohit.
get more slaves in bigger units if what you have isn't working for you
bass orb
poisoned wind globes if you like them, but convert them as they are rediculously expensive to buy, like all gw's metals right now.
slaves
cannons
doomwheels
slaves
cracks call big scary monsters every round you can, the key to winning a dice rolling game, is making your enemy roll some dice.
I have a ton of jezzail, but I haven't used em in .... maybe ever, I can only remember one game where I took them, and I took them as a gimick with a warlord that dropped a folding fortress on the night 8th edition came out. fun times, but not effective at all.
targeting priorities. if it's not worth your resources, don't kill it. I've had opponents freak out and throw everything they had at a unit of 100 slaves worth 204 points, while the 2796 points worth of the rest of my army face-stomped them. if you can tie up a dragon with a lord riding him in combat with a huge slave tarpit, he's going to be there a while. throw in a champion for challenging to last even longer. if he's killing slaves, he's not killing cannons, doomwheels, warlords, grey seers, rat ogres, or even rat swarms (not that I'm advocating taking them, just including them for schnitzengiggles.)
slaves, slaves, slaves!!
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tbone
Member Avatar
Grey Seer
Bobofreak
Dec 3 2010, 08:09 AM
Quote:
 
Regardless of what the rules say, a quick thinking prince or mage on a dragon can't make the dragon move any faster than it already can to get it out of the way. I don't understand all the questions about if hydras can use their beastmaster's initiative or if dragons can use their rider's. They're still big, slow animals...brass orb hits and destroys everything under the template that fails the test. period.


Really who needs those pesky rules!!! LOL if you are looking to apply "Common Sense" to rules interpertations for Warhammer maybe this is not the game for you :P ,

Tbone

Page 105 of the Basic Rule Book Bottom Right Hand Corner.

"TEMPLATES

If you use a WEAPON or a SPELL that uses a template against a monster mount , both the riders and the mount are automatically hit if the monster's base is touched by the template. (note that this includes bouncing cannonballs!). In the case of a stone thrower, which inflicts hits at two different Strengths, only one model will be hit at the higher Strength (assuming that model's base is under the centre of the template). Randomize, as for a shooting attack, to see whether one of the riders or the mount is unlucky enough to take the high-Strength hit. All other models are hit at the lower strength value."


"BRASS ORB (Enchanted Item) 50Pts

One use only. In the shooting phase the user can throw the orb. Place the small round template with its centre anywhere within 8" of the character and in his line of sight. Scatter the template as you would for a stone thrower shot. Models touched by the template must take an Initiative test or be destroyed, with no saves (of any kind) allowed. Remember that a 6 is always a failure. "Look out Sir!" works as normal. If a misfire is rolled, centre the template on the model throwing the globe."

Well the Brass Orb is neither a "WEAPON" or a "SPELL" it is an "ENCHANTED ITEM" that uses a template so it does not fall under any of the template targetting rules from the the BRB and only uses the rules for the Brass Orb in the Skaven Supplement which states "AN" initiative test per model. A Prince on a Dragon is a single model


Further on page 10 of the Basic Rule Book under Charteristic Tests it states the following

"Characteristics Tests

......

Where a model(or a unit) has more than one value for the same characteristic, as is the case with calvary, for example, a characteristic test is always taken against the highest of values."


So a Dragon Prince on a Star Dragon would need to take one initiative test from the Brass Orb using the Dragon Prince's Initiative of 6 so they would need to throw the 6 to fail. This is where Warhammer and common sense part ways. :wacko:

Though if the test was failed the entire model would be removed Rider and Mount as they are a single Model as stated under the Ridden Monsters section of the BRB bottem left pg 105 (Im tired of quoting, go read it for yourself :D ) they are only targetable seperately in Hand to Hand. If something forces it to take a charateristic test or be removed and it fails the entire model would be removed.

Good detective skills

I guess I just assumed that the orb was indeed a weapon. But i was wrong

But, I guess, RAW, your right, silly as they may seem.

It seems like this will continue to be the case until they errata the skyre tools as weapons, or remove the 'weapon' and 'magic' template distinction from 105, we should probably play it like Bobofreak says.
Tbone's Nasty Rats
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Trulseren
Clanrat
Does this mean I can march and then use a Doomrocket or Brass orb in the same turn?
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Rakashani
Warlord
Fascinating. If I bludgeon you to death with a plunger am I allowed to go into court and claim that there is no murder weapon and so I should be exonerated?

You're really basing this argument on a claim that the Brass Orb, a thrown device which kills whole units of infantry is not a "weapon"? I might be able to stomach that if you didn't then tout it as common sense.
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Malidsol
Clanrat
The Brass Orb is an enchanted item, not a weapon. If it where a weapon then you would not be allowed to take other magical weapons on the engineer. Not that you can anyway with the points cost. Doesn't necessarily make sense in reality, but it makes sense in the game.

Doom Rocket and Death Globe, on the other hand, are both explicitally magic weapons.
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tbone
Member Avatar
Grey Seer
Malidsol
Dec 3 2010, 08:51 PM
The Brass Orb is an enchanted item, not a weapon. If it where a weapon then you would not be allowed to take other magical weapons on the engineer. Not that you can anyway with the points cost. Doesn't necessarily make sense in reality, but it makes sense in the game.

Doom Rocket and Death Globe, on the other hand, are both explicitally magic weapons.

I can't believe I didn't notice that the rocket and globe were both indeed weapons. Sorry if I confused anyone.
Tbone's Nasty Rats
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Rakashani
Warlord
Let me rephrase my observation.

The word "weapon" is not capitalized in the rule. The argument that the Brass Orb is not a "weapon" is an example of the worst type of rules lawyering I can imagine and I'm pretty good at rules lawyering.

As I said, I could almost stomach it if you didn't then call that common sense.

In other words, you are claiming that GW exercised very careful judgement in writing a rule that explicitly mentioned weapons and spells because they were completely cognizant of the fact that there were so *many* non-weapon, non-spell templates out there that could cause a similar effect.

So yeah, I get the rules lawyering, but please, don't stoop to calling it "common sense".
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Bobofreak
Member Avatar
The Big Cheese!!
Quote:
 
As I said, I could almost stomach it if you didn't then call that common sense.


RAW and common sense are two roads that rarely meet.

I think you misunderstand my comments or maybe my intention wasn't clear but after the argument I state that this is where "Common Sense" and Warhammer part ways.


What I meant by that is that it dosent make any Sense common or otherwise but in a RAW interpertation I think it holds water fairly well.

Even if you disregard my argument I still think the Orb only does one test for a Monster and Rider as the rules under the Brass orb says "AN" test for "EACH" model. A Monstrous Mount and a Rider are one "MODEL" as stated in the BRB on pg 105 just like a calvary model the only exception is in Hand to Hand whcih the Orb is not so the excpetion doesnt matter. For shooting purpooses its states "As a single model," So if you hit a unit of cavalry with the orb each model would take one test at the highest initiative available. Same for a Prince on a Star dragon.

Please dont think in a million years that I think my original argument made common sense. To be honest I originally was posting a response similar to the one above but after reading the section a few times I noticed the template section stated specific things using a template (I know its not capitalized) but I thought my latter argument got me to the same place as the argument above with a lot less room for debate, I think from a RAW standpoint its a pretty tight argument.

To be honest I really don't care how anyone would want to play the Brass Orb in a best case scenario for its effectiveness lets say it hits both the rider and the mount, the mount would still get to use the riders initiative as stated on page 10 of the BRB so in the case of the Dragon Prince and the Star Dragon its 2D6 for 6's, not very high probability.
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Kevlar
Doomwheel Driver
The brass orb also doesn't do "hits". So it won't hit multipart models more than once. It just forces an init test and those are resolved at the highest init of the model. Note though that beasts and handlers are not multipart models, they are separate models and the handlers are just ignored, so a hydra is still going to be init 2.
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Ablabab
Chieftain
Moggrash
Dec 1 2010, 08:25 PM
Ablabab
Dec 1 2010, 02:19 PM
tbone
Dec 1 2010, 06:31 PM
The orb would help.  If the dragon model was hit, both the prince and dragon separately would have to take an I test or be destroyed.

Wrong - although they can be targeted separately, the Brass Orb can only force (whole) models to take a test, which they do using the highest Initiative value.

The same goes for Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace and (dis)similar mount(ed) models - one test per (whole) model, affecting the entire model.

Wrong. The Brass Orb is a template, and the Dragon is a Ridden Monster.
Ridden Monsters will take two hits, 1 on the mount and 1 on the Rider. Page 105 BRB.

BRB p. 10.

Characteristic test are always taken by either models or units. Never by "parts of models". If a model has more than one characteristic (as is the case with a screaming bell/ridden dragon), the test is taken at the higher value.

One test that affects the whole model. Or one test that affects the whole unit.
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Vulcan
Member Avatar
Clanrat
The best way I have found to handle monster units is to toss a bus of 50 slaves in front of them. 10 ranks deep means they will retain steadfast and full leadership for quite some time. Keep the BSB near - but not IN - the unit and clear of any potential overrun/pursuit moves, so he can provide rerolls without being exposed to the monster unit's attacks. If I don't thin the unit will last, I'll put a second unit in the overrun path to tie them up even longer.

Then throw in the Poison Wind Globes, Jezzails, Warp-Lighting Cannon, Plagueclaw Catapults, Warpfire Throwers, and any magic I can get at the tied-up unit. Bonus points for Death Frenzy on the slaves, they might actually do some damage that way.

Sure, he'll massacre the slaves (with your help). So what? He's netted a whole 100 victory points per unit of slaves. Wipe out that monster unit and you'll net far more than that. Even if you don't wipe it out, your overwhelming points advantage on the rest of the field means you should have wiped out everything else, and scored more points anyway.
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Bobtailmaneater
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Grey Seer
chieftainskritchskritch
Dec 1 2010, 07:25 PM
Rakashani
Dec 1 2010, 05:22 PM
I have to admit that I am surprised nobody has mentioned Jezzails.  They're high S and they ignore all but the nastiest armors.  They may not be able to pivot and shoot the way Doomwheels and WLCs can but they can deny a large piece of the table in a unit of decent size.

Unfortunately, jezzails arent really worth taking anymore in most competitive builds. Besides the mentioned inability to pivot and shoot, they are only a miserable BS3. Combine this with the loss of "+1 to Hit Large Targets" and you'll find that, most of the time, you'll be hitting your intended target on a 5+. Hardly worth the 20pts you pay for a single Jezzail (let alone the $$$).

Hang on a sec....did they remove the shooting modifier against large targets?

I note that Jezzails are no longer 'move or fire', so you can at least turn to shoot with them (alas, -1 to BS). Always buy the sharp shooter upgrade for 10 points. Well worth having a guy with BS4 in the crew!

Hey, I just finished re-basing 10 jezzails last night, so I need to keep the faith with these guys :)
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Bobtail's links:

*My Sculpting and Converting Blog on UE

*My Article on the Skaven Runic Alphabet
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