| Help needed fighting to fight horrible monsters | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 1st December 2010 - 05:37 PM (1,656 Views) | |
| Skaven | 1st December 2010 - 05:37 PM Post #1 |
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Clanrat
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Hello, I have managed to amass a 2,800 point army in a short space of time, and played a few battles with it. I have a Doomwheel, HPA, Warp Lightning Cannon, Grey seer, Plague Furnace + 40 Monks, 50 slaves, 90 clanrats, 2 ratling guns, warpfire thrower, several warlock and warlord/chieftain models, and 20 night runners. My two opponents are Daemons and High Elves. I every battle I have played, I begin by utterly crushing the opposing army (last battle I killed 16 Daemonettes (13th + powerscroll, a combination which I will probably not use again as it's just too horrid), a Beast, 3 Fiends, and took 4 wounds off the Bloodthirster in the first two turns, only suffering about 5 casualties in return). I similarly devestate the High Elf battleline. However, after the first few turns, I end up charged by a variety of very strong units (Daemons use the Bloodthirster / Skulltaker + Bloodletters, High Elves use a Prince of Star Dragon, and Swordmasters). The game then unfolds very predictably. I use whatever dirty tricks are at my disposal and whittle away most of the strongest enemy troops. By the fourth turn, skirmishers and/or missile fire has removed my artillery. The huge monsters then proceed to kill 10-15 models per round of combat and nothing I have can even scratch them. By turn 6 they have eaten the entire army. I can't see a way round it - once they close on my lines there seems to be nothing I can do other than remove handfuls of models and eventually concede the game. SiN + steadfast with rerolls from BSB is great, but all it does it prolong the inevitable. It seems to be a case of either I kill their monster with artillery and win by default in the first turn or two, or I fail to kill it and am doomed to a slow death. My main conundrum is that I currently spend the bare minimum on core troops, 25%, and would need to buy more to expand the army, but the core troops do literally nothing other than wait to be killed. Spend 250+ points on clanrats and a weapons team seems pointless when they kill 2 bloodletters a turn and die in droves. Does anyone have any advice for dealing with big nasty monsters? Would the brass orb work on the dragon (it's initiative 2), or does the Prince use his initiative to test? What about cracks call (it can fly so not sure how this could work)? As for the bloodthirster, it seems to have no weakness. Any suggestions would be appreciated! |
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| tbone | 1st December 2010 - 06:31 PM Post #2 |
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Grey Seer
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The orb would help. If the dragon model was hit, both the prince and dragon separately would have to take an I test or be destroyed. Cannons and Doomwheels are some of the best anti-monster weapons, I'd suggest getting them into the list. If tarpitting with clan rats isn't working, try using more slaves. You can get twice the tarpitting mileage from them. |
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| Sleboda | 1st December 2010 - 06:39 PM Post #3 |
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Pensive Penguins Fan
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==> I take it your group has decided to play differently than the standard rules of the game would indicate then? You need troops for banners and to go in buildings. Several of the scenarios in the game are nearly impossible to win if you have very little in the way of troops. |
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| razaan | 1st December 2010 - 06:41 PM Post #4 |
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Chieftain
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I want to second the Doomwheel option. That thing is a monster killer. A lucky roll can send 3 Str 6-10 lightning bolts into the nearest model (hopefully the monster) that each deal d6 wounds! I've never had any issue getting it to where it needs to be, thanks to the FAQ giving it the Random Movement rule. Being able to pivot 360 degrees prior to movement is HUGE. Not to mention, it can dish out d6+1 Str 6 impact hits and still do the lightning while in combat! I have one and so far it's killed a Star Dragon and Prince, a Moon Dragon and Prince, a War Hydra and an Empire Lord on a Griffon each with little to no effort involved. It really makes me want a second one. |
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| ratwhowouldbeking | 1st December 2010 - 07:07 PM Post #5 |
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Clanrat
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I don't understand what your Plague Furnace, Doomwheel, and HPA are doing if they're not killing the enemy uber monsters. Two Warp Lightning Cannons can really up your odds of killing big scary beasties by turn two. When it comes to scary units like Sword Masters, remember to place your shots so you can kill enough to matter. You don't have to wipe them off the table with shooting if you can just get them down to a manageable number before they hit your lines. From your list of units, it sounds like you should have things well in hand, so it may be your actual army list or how you're setting up on turn 1. Care to share? |
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| Ablabab | 1st December 2010 - 07:19 PM Post #6 |
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Chieftain
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Wrong - although they can be targeted separately, the Brass Orb can only force (whole) models to take a test, which they do using the highest Initiative value. The same goes for Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace and (dis)similar mount(ed) models - one test per (whole) model, affecting the entire model. |
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| Moggrash | 1st December 2010 - 08:25 PM Post #7 |
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Clanrat
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Wrong. The Brass Orb is a template, and the Dragon is a Ridden Monster. Ridden Monsters will take two hits, 1 on the mount and 1 on the Rider. Page 105 BRB. |
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| tbone | 1st December 2010 - 08:26 PM Post #8 |
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Grey Seer
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ummmm (i really don't understand what all those parenthesis mean) A dragon is a ridden monster A brass orb is a template what does the last paragraph of page 105 say about templates and ridden monsters? |
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| bakfire the experimenter | 1st December 2010 - 09:52 PM Post #9 |
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graduate of the school for dangerous inventions
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the book says that both monster and rider are hit by templates and this included cannon balls. |
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| Rakashani | 1st December 2010 - 10:22 PM Post #10 |
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Warlord
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I have to admit that I am surprised nobody has mentioned Jezzails. They're high S and they ignore all but the nastiest armors. They may not be able to pivot and shoot the way Doomwheels and WLCs can but they can deny a large piece of the table in a unit of decent size. That's not to say that you should ignore Doomwheels and WLCs. They are at least as good and possibly better in this role. The Abom is an effective unit if you can catch something but it lacks the mobility to really deal with a flying monster (it's like Jezzails in that it can deny a portion of the table effectively). Technically, I like the Abom against ranked units a *lot* more than against monsters, for example. Magic is another solid option. If that T5 or T6 monster comes calling, a few rounds of Wither and even Clanrats scare it all of a sudden. Warplightning is not great but if you use enough of it (say 2-3 engineers for 2-3 turns) then it can also be enough. That requires that you get first turn though (otherwise it is likely to be in combat and not a target for magic missiles). |
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| chieftainskritchskritch | 2nd December 2010 - 12:25 AM Post #11 |
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The Freshmaker
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Unfortunately, jezzails arent really worth taking anymore in most competitive builds. Besides the mentioned inability to pivot and shoot, they are only a miserable BS3. Combine this with the loss of "+1 to Hit Large Targets" and you'll find that, most of the time, you'll be hitting your intended target on a 5+. Hardly worth the 20pts you pay for a single Jezzail (let alone the $$$). |
| You kids these days have it so easy, what with your Plague Furnaces and your Hellpit Abominations and your Bonebreaker Warlords. Back in MY day, all we had was Slaves and Clanrats!...and auto-hit Ratling Guns...and skirmishing Jezzails...and 2D6 Warp Lightning...and Lead From The Back...wait, what was my arguement again? | |
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| turmi110 | 2nd December 2010 - 01:40 AM Post #12 |
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Chieftain
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I'm with Ablabab here. The BRB says that multipart models under templates take a hit per part, but in the skaven army book it says that models under the template must take an initiative test. To me they are conflicting rules and army book trumps rulebook. If the orb said use small template, and take an initiative for every hit, then there would be no conflict and there would be two tests taken. Doomwheel has always worked wonders for me, especially against HE who don't have any cannons or much to knock it out before it gets to zzap. Mine was once charged by a dragon mage (on his dragon) who then lost his mage to the grind + attacks, and the dragon fluffed only to be zzapped to oblivion in my shooting phase. He won't be trying that again, which is good, because I was lucky the dragon fluffed his attacks and my wheel fired off 3 s10 shots ![]() With WLC and doomwheels and abom there should be no problem with monsters. If you tie them up with slaves then you can shoot at them with your cannons to your hearts content, killing lots of slaves in the process, but thats what they are there for. |
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| tbone | 2nd December 2010 - 02:08 AM Post #13 |
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Grey Seer
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It does say use the "small round template"........ you, in effect are claiming that because it doesn't say hit it doesn't go under ridden monster rules. Instead they used the word touched . Okay...what happens when templates touch a model.....they are hit.... To further refute your claim that it is not a "hit" Why does brass orb entry say you can use "Look out Sir" rule, which only changes which models are hit, if nothing is being hit by a brass orb as you claim????? The presence of "Look out Sir" makes it pretty clear models are being "hit"
not this again...ughh Where is this?????....please tell me your not referring to page 9....... |
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| Rakashani | 3rd December 2010 - 12:56 AM Post #14 |
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Warlord
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How's about p. 105, tbone. Bottom, right column. Under Shooting at Ridden Monsters there is a section on templates. |
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| tbone | 3rd December 2010 - 02:12 AM Post #15 |
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Grey Seer
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I've been reading that section all day...what are you referring to? |
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