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Shields on Skaven Slaves
Topic Started: 30th November 2010 - 09:21 PM (3,283 Views)
Paricidas
Doomwheel Driver
Here some Numbers, if anyone cares:

Without shield:

str3-hit: dead slaves: 0,5 points lost:1
str4-hit: dead slaves: 0,66 points lost: 1,33
str5-hit: dead slaves: 0,83 points lost: 1,66

With shield:

str3-hit: dead slaves: 0,35 points lost: 0,87
str4-hit: dead slaves: 0,56 points lost: 1,39
str5-hit: dead slaves: 0,69 points lost: 1,74


In short terms: Per slave you pay 25% more. For this you will get a slower dying rate of around 17% but will lose 4% more pointswise than with naked slaves. Against enemies with str3, shields will have by far the best effects.


17% more survivers and better CR against lesser costs. If you just want to tarpit, then shields are wasted, better buy bodies. If you want the slaves to hold up the enemy for nice flankcharge of your ROs, A-Bombs and DWs, those 17% will often improve your CR.
Ceterum censeo Altdorfem esse delendam
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Vulcan
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Clanrat
By and large, I find that a bigger unit works better than a smaller one with shields.

A couple months back, I actually ran the math on 100-point units with and without shields vs. S3, S4, and S5+ (which, regrettably, I neglected to save :blush: ). Assuming that the unit would no longer be steadfast once it dropped under 4 ranks (less than 20 models), the units with shields broke an average of a turn earlier.

Of course, you might not run them that big, and the smaller units might last just as long with shields as without due to lack of enough bodies to delay things that long. In that case, denying those couple points of CR might be important. But by and large, I think shields on slaves just encourages them to get uppity without boosting their value on the battlefield. ^_^
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Ratatak Gristlegouger
Stormvermin
This is what I love about Warhammer...there is no right answer.

Some of us use shields and fail, some use shields and succeed.

Some of us use no shields and fail, some use no shields and succeed.


Depends on who you're fighting, the luck of the dice, fluff, whatever.

The joy of Warhammer is that your army is yours, and anything could work!

"Doooom rockets in flight.... Afternoon delight!"
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SkavenDan
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Doomwheel Fanatic
Given that they are slaves and my tactic is death frenzie (frenzie stops parry working) and bless with filth. spears is my option which also kills parry I believe. So no I don't use shields. If I ever didn't use spears then I would give it a shot it's only 0.5 per model.
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Trulseren
Clanrat
bakfire the experimenter
Nov 30 2010, 05:02 PM
my personal experiences are different from these..

i use slaves all the time on my slaves yes you dont get a save against S4 or above but you do get the parry save which has helped me win combats on number of times.

If your slaves actually won the combat they must have been fighting goblins or something to that effect so the shields might actually come into play.

Don't get me wrong, my slaves have beaten and run down units of Bloodletters, but I never put shields on my slaves so it wasn't becaus of that.

Also, I'd never buy shields in case it would help me win combats. The only thing I want for my slaves is to die and hold the line for at least a turn or two. Those points are better spent on more slaves to make sure I am steadfast and have SiN for longer.

Shields for 20 slaves = 10 pts. That is an entire extra rank of naked slaves! Ranks will win you the combat or keep you from running, shields won't.

Of course, this is all a moot point if you simply don't have enough models :P
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Lord Lughtigern
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The Mad Ratter.

Ratattack
Dec 4 2010, 06:28 AM
This is what I love about Warhammer...there is no right answer.

Some of us use shields and fail, some use shields and succeed.

Some of us use no shields and fail, some use no shields and succeed.


Depends on who you're fighting, the luck of the dice, fluff, whatever.

The joy of Warhammer is that your army is yours, and anything could work!

Deep man. This could not be more zen. :P

I always use slaves in situations where I expect them to die really fast, so shields would be counter productive.
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Links you should try out:
Denizens of the Deep - Rules for Underground Campaigns
Warhammer Skirmish - The Lazy Man's Mordheim
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Clanseer Skabrius
Lord of the Undermountain
No shields for my Skavenslaves, here's why:
I prefer investing points in a bigger unit; this means there's more of them (duh) but they'll also be steadfast for longer. Shields on slaves also take up more points than you'd think; on 120 slaves you pay an additional 60 points.
In my games, slaves have a habit of dying, so I keep them as cheap as possible. Their purpose in the game is to slow a unit down, nothing more.
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King Rat
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Grey Seer
Shields = Waste of points in my opinion.

Keep the slaves cheap and expendable, why sink points into them to keep them alive?

Put the shields on the Clan Rats :)
8th Ed Win /Draw/ Loss
Skaven 24/ 10/ 13

Runner up Club Championships 2014, 2012
2nd Place Blood on the Reich 2011, 3rd Place Devilcon 2011
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Kevlar
Doomwheel Driver
King Rat
Dec 7 2010, 03:33 PM
Shields = Waste of points in my opinion.

Keep the slaves cheap and expendable, why sink points into them to keep them alive?

Put the shields on the Clan Rats :)

Why buy clanrats? Talk about waste of points.
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Rodyle
Clanrat
Kevlar
Dec 7 2010, 09:31 PM
King Rat
Dec 7 2010, 03:33 PM
Shields = Waste of points in my opinion.

Keep the slaves cheap and expendable, why sink points into them to keep them alive?

Put the shields on the Clan Rats :)

Why buy clanrats? Talk about waste of points.

Because slaves cannot take weapon teams.
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daredevi1


i think they are worth it

They get 6+ armor save and 6++ ward save in CC from shields(parry),and that means 2 chances per wound against str3 opponent to roll a 6,and against 4 str or higher opponent a 1/6 chance to save.

Altho i am not big fan of slaves in general,maybe 1(or 2 max if i have shooty list) unit for tarpiting,as they clog the field and thus limit my tactical options,and eliminates any dose of strategy i might have,and as well making the opponent pretty aware what i will do.
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King Rat
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Grey Seer
If Slaves lose a combat they die therefore more points lost if they have shields.

Might be worth shields on a large 50 block of slaves as an extra aid to the tarpit. But genrally speaking let them die they are cheap and expendable.

Why take Clan Rats

1. Weapons teams
2. They ignore Slaves Panic
3. Fight a bit better than slaves
8th Ed Win /Draw/ Loss
Skaven 24/ 10/ 13

Runner up Club Championships 2014, 2012
2nd Place Blood on the Reich 2011, 3rd Place Devilcon 2011
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spino
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Chieftain
I've never taken shields for my Slaves but I can see the logic in doing so. By making Slaves with shields your mainstay units instead of Clanrats it can free up a ton of points to use on Special & Rare troops.

Slaves may die and lose more readily than Clanrats but when they do break they explode, which for the Skaven player should mean D3 plus a bunch of ranks that land automatic S3 hits on the unit(s) that beat them. A fat unit of exploding Slaves can put some serious hurt on light armored T3 troops, it's like getting several free bonus rounds of combat versus the enemy. In fact I find it hysterically funny that our Slave units can be much deadlier to the enemy in death than they are in life.
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Sketch
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scratchings and squeakings

Looking at the shields saving Slaves isn't necessarily the best way to think of it. Consider your Slaves in combat with the 15 Khorne Chaos Chosen. The best possible situation (from your point of view!) for Slaves to be in. Although the Slaves are Steadfast on (hopefully) re-rollable Ld 10 your flanking Doomwheel won't be. Ld 7 doesn't need that many dead slaves for it to be down at Ld 2 and if you're anywhere near a board edge it's goodbye to 150VP's. By neglecting to put shields on your Slaves you may save 0.5pts per dead Slave but it's a definite possibility for you to lose 150pts. The term "false economy" springs to mind.

Incidentally, has anyone ever found a use for a Paw Leader? Granted he could be one or two extra Slaves but, given the popularity of leaving out champions and standard bearers on very expensive units (Blood Knights, Chaos Knights, Dragon Princes, etc.) this little six and a half point mouse could technically hold up a Chaos Lord on a Juggernaut by challenging him! Saving perhaps six or seven of his friends (at least for a while!)

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Raining Blood / M(elrik)atriculation / Twikitch's Triumph
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Rodyle
Clanrat
Mja, I don't know how much of a difference even the shields would make in the end, to be honest, but I should do some maths on it. I mean, even with shields, slaves still die by the dozens.


On pawleaders: if you have a hero or lord in a unit slaves for some reason, it could be helpful to have a pawleader to accept (a) challenges in it's place.
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