| Shields on Skaven Slaves | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 30th November 2010 - 09:21 PM (3,282 Views) | |
| Rodyle | 30th November 2010 - 09:21 PM Post #1 |
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Clanrat
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Hi there, I was looking at the army book the other day, smirked at the idea of Slaves with shields, but then it struck me. Could they perhaps have a better value per point than their non-shielded counterparts? I mean, a shield is only half a point... It could very well be that that armour and ward save it gives improves their survivability per point better than it would be to use those extra points for more slaves. I was totally ready to start doing some math on the subject, before realizing I didn't have the data necessary to do any calculations on this, so I decided just to ask you guys what your experiences with this are. Thanks in advance |
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| KorruptingInfluence | 30th November 2010 - 09:34 PM Post #2 |
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Logically I agree, it seems worthy points-wise. Fluff, fun and cruelty however win out for me. The slaves are there for one purpose, take up space til they die. Every 4 shields is another slave's body to be sacrificed! I like to run smallish blocks with slings, only to provide a cheap firing platform. In that case they are given slings simply to let them kill before they die. Saving them is not an option for me lol. Stupid, awesome slaves lol. Just my two cents |
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| ratwhowouldbeking | 30th November 2010 - 09:38 PM Post #3 |
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Clanrat
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I've never believed it was worth it - 25% of the model's cost for an extra 17% survivability in most situations. It's going to be a rare game that you put Slaves into combat against something with S3 such that the armor will matter. You can argue that shields will make it easier for your hard-hitting flank units to hit positive combat res. But if your Slaves are having 20 wounds dumped on them, saving 3-4 probably won't get you there. The question is what you're using them for. IMO, if you're putting them into combat with grimy S3 poor-hitters where the shields will help, you're probably not using them to their potential. If you're putting them in against that unit of 15 Chaos Chosen, shields ain't gonna save 'em - and that's the point, Chosen kill everything, you just have a lot more Slaves where the dead ones came from. If the choice is between 40 Slaves with shields and 50 slaves naked, I'll take the latter every time. Gosh, that sounded wrong. I always throw in a musician, though. |
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| Ablabab | 30th November 2010 - 09:38 PM Post #4 |
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Chieftain
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It is not worthwhile points-wise. A shield saves a skaven slave from 1/6 of ordinary close combat attacks. That's 3 points worth of shields to save a 2 pt slave. The shield also saves some slaves from shooting - only S3 and below, though. The shield does not save slaves from: Impact Hits, Stomp attack, thunderstomp, most damaging spells, S4+ shooting and more. |
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| Kevlar | 30th November 2010 - 09:40 PM Post #5 |
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Doomwheel Driver
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50 slaves will make about 20 saves vs str 3 close combat attacks. They are also less likely to take panic checks from shooting and will not generate as much combat resolution for your enemy. Remember if you are using a combined arms approach your slaves may be steadfast, but your rat ogres or doomwheel won't be. You really don't want to lose combat by a ton and see your flanking attackers fail their break test and flee. So the less dead slaves the better. |
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| Rodyle | 30th November 2010 - 09:44 PM Post #6 |
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Clanrat
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Those numbers pretty much answer my question. Thanks. And yes, I agree that fluff-wise, it is also a bit odd to do something like this. However, I really don't want to paint separate units of slaves and clanrats, since I will be changing with the numbers of units and the models within them pretty often. Still don't think I'm going to though, but I'll see. |
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| tbone | 30th November 2010 - 09:53 PM Post #7 |
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Grey Seer
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Another way to look at that 17% is consider that the enemy will get 17% less combat res for wounds on your slaves. So if want to win combat, they are useful. Magic and shooty list should keep them naked, because more bodies = more steadfast = more tarpitting It just comes down to usage, not necessarily shields are better than no shields. |
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| bakfire the experimenter | 30th November 2010 - 10:02 PM Post #8 |
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graduate of the school for dangerous inventions
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my personal experiences are different from these.. i use slaves all the time on my slaves yes you dont get a save against S4 or above but you do get the parry save which has helped me win combats on number of times. |
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| Rakashani | 30th November 2010 - 10:32 PM Post #9 |
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Warlord
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As was said before, it depends on what you want your slaves to do. I run 20-man units as screen/bait/redirect. I use Clannies to Tarpit and *those* have shields. It's all about what you're trying to do with the unit. |
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| Kevlar | 30th November 2010 - 10:47 PM Post #10 |
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Doomwheel Driver
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Plus its freaking hilarious seeing the look on your opponent's face when your slaves are fighting S6 killing blow grave guard and you make a crazy roll and ward save half the wounds. Most of my slaves are older edition clanrats, IoB molded shield clanrats, or BFSP molded shield goblins. So I buy shields for them for aesthetics as well as for fun. They work and I like them. |
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| catandy | 1st December 2010 - 03:43 PM Post #11 |
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Clanrat
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You give a slave a shield.... And he'll soon be asking for a weapon! Don't go down that road....... |
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As the Old Greyseer was lying on his deathbed he passed on a few words of wisdom to his son: - War is not about winning son, its about your opponents losing more than you do. - But dad, if your opponents lose more than you do, you still win the battle, so its all the same, isn't it? - You are so young my son.....worthy opponents are on your side of the battlefield..... | |
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| razaan | 1st December 2010 - 06:49 PM Post #12 |
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Chieftain
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I run shields on my slaves every time. I don't know if my rats are somehow exceedingly skilled in the use of shields, or they are just stupidly lucky, but they always pay off. I had one game where they were charged by a Dark Elf Hydra. In the first round I lost one to the Impact Hit (due to my opponent's inability to wound) and I think I lost 2 to Thunderstomp. He had a rough time hitting me, but the ones that did make it through were saved. I made 4 parry saves that turn. With ranks and a wound on the Hydra, along with the required musician, I won combat. It was just too bad my opponent made his leadership test. |
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| Scurrilous | 2nd December 2010 - 11:41 AM Post #13 |
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Warlord
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My slave block has had shields since day 1 so I can't really compare them without, however.. I think they're worth it. I tend to use the slaves to bog down enemy units so my other units can move about more freely and pour firepower into the ones trapped by the slaves. They really never win combat (well actually they did win combat against some chaos warriors then run them down, awesome sauce) but they hold out far longer than statistics led me to expect. Also, if there's one thing I love about Skaven it's the randomness and luck-based gaming. Nothing exemplifies that quite like a 1/6 chance to ruin an opponants day when it finally pays off. |
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Tournemant results to date: vs Vampire Counts: 1 victory vs Dwarves: 1 victory vs Daemons: 1 Draw vs Brettonians: 1 draw, 1 loss vs Skaven: 1 victory vs Lizardmen: 1 victory vs Dark Elves: 1 loss vs High Elves: 1 loss | |
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| Rodyle | 2nd December 2010 - 11:19 PM Post #14 |
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Clanrat
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Mjeh. I'm not generally known for my lucky throws in any game involving dice, but yeah. I do acknowledge that I'm not viewing at it objectively, so I try to solve these kind of problems using a mathematical approach. So, if I see correctly, as long as your slaves go toe to toe against units with a strength of 3 (or lower), shields make them per point better than naked slaves. It should be decided on a case-by-case basis which is better to use, when looked at it from that perspective. Two other factors also play a large role here, though. A unit with shields is generally going to be smaller than one without them, since they are 25% more expensive. So instead of using units of 50, you might see more units of 40 slaves. This should make a difference when factoring in movement. On the other hand: smaller units means you have a smaller chance of retaining steadfast and a proper amount of rats for Strength in Numbers (though the increased survivability might balance things out here). And indeed, there is the aforementioned issue of fluff. Why the hell should you even think about giving slaves shields? They are there to die horribly! As for the question on what I intend my slaves to do? Tarpits, pure and simple. Keep enemy units busy while either a stronger unit, a magic spell or shooting takes it out. On the other hand, this is also what I think of clanrats. Except that they are more expensive, and give access to weapon teams. |
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| reddogfish77 | 3rd December 2010 - 04:55 AM Post #15 |
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Grey Seer
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hmmm... i think there is one conclusion we can all draw from this... regardless of what they are equipped with slaves are worth it... how about that? |
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