| Bell/Furnance vs Templates | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 30th November 2010 - 01:35 PM (2,680 Views) | |
| Ablabab | 9th December 2010 - 05:33 PM Post #76 |
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Chieftain
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While not wholly agreeing that the above is obvious, i do agree that this particular question really needs an FAQ. |
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| turmi110 | 9th December 2010 - 06:10 PM Post #77 |
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Chieftain
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To me a rules lawyer is someone who will argue a point solely to gain an advantage no matter what they may believe the actual rule to be. I base that on real lawyers, they argue their clients innocence no matter what they may personally believe, because at the end of the day they benefit from it in the form of cold hard cash. That being the case I find it extremely presumptuous to label anyone as a rules lawyer because it is all a question of motive, and nobody truly knows a persons motive except themselves. Someone arguing that the rule be used to their own detriment to me is not a rules lawyer, they are either arguing because they believe it to be true, or because they are being the devils advocate. tbone, I will attempt to answer your rules query on warmachines with dwarf engineers, I am unfamiliar with the other types of addons to other armies warmachines, so I'll deal specifically with dwarf engineers. In general an ordinary warmachine is a single model with a split profile. There are no separate parts on the warmachine, there is only one thing that you can swing at in close combat, and only one thing your shooting attacks can hit as there is no randomisation. The toughness you use vs shooting and close combat is different, but you are still hitting the same thing, the warmachine model in general. Now an engineer is different from a master engineer. The master engineer is a character that can join a warmachine unit, but he doesn't actually join and becomes one of the crew, he is a separate model from the machine. Being a separate model, they follow the normal rules for templates, whoever is under it takes a hit. No multiple locations there. The engineer is bought as a unit upgrade to the machine, and joins the crew, so is treated the same as the rest of the crew with just some additional rules specific to him. You still cannot direct any attacks at him or randomise missile fire to him as he is part of the crew. So unless there is a mention somewhere in a FAQ that I missed or I messed up somewhere in my logic, the machine only takes a single hit from a template with or without the engineer. Now that I've endeavored to answer one of your questions, I'd wonder if you'd be so kind to answer a few of mine. One of which I asked a while back. I asked if there were any cases in which a screaming bell and seer cannot be hit separately, but an ordinary character on a monster could? I cannot come up with any, I was curious if you know one? Actually that question is aimed at anyone. Also, tbone, would you agree that the screaming bell + seer has multiple locations that can be hit separately for at least close combat and for basic shooting attacks? By basic shooting attacks I mean BS based shooting, bolt throwers, bowfire, guns etc and not including templates. Am I correct in saying that you believe that in order for a model to receive multiple hits from a template, the template rules on page 9 require the model to have separate locations that can be hit by templates and that no other cases (eg close combat) count? If that is not true, then can you restate your reasoning behind the bell not having separate locations that can be hit for the purposes of templates? MUTATE:
Personally I'm trying to argue the point that the bell/furnace takes two hits from a template, it may look like I'm specifically arguing with tbone, but thats because he's pretty much the only person from the opposing point of view that is stepping forward to continue the argument. Nothing personal against you tbone. As for the unique status of the bell:
Sums my thoughts up too. |
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| tbone | 9th December 2010 - 08:19 PM Post #78 |
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Grey Seer
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Master engineers no longer join war machines. They just sit 3 inches from them. I'm pretty sure no characters can join warmachines anymore. But my question was about crew upgraded engineers.
Agreed.
Come on, that doesn't make any sense at all. If you cannot direct any attacks at him or randomize shooting, how the heck do you kill him. Of course, if you do direct attacks or randomize shooting, that would mean that you'd have to believe that a war machine with an engineer would also be considered a "multiple location model that can normally be hit separately," just like the bell. Meaning it would be hit twice by templates. I must say I'm still interested to hear what peoples opinions are on a template vs. and anvil, cauldron, or casket... as well as anyone elses opinion on how templates work vs. bullies and engineers.
Sorry, I'm having trouble understanding your question. I'm curious as to what the ridden monsters rule and the bell rules have to do with each other? We've determined that you believe that 105 ridden monster rules are redundant, so what's your point. If this is another way to ask me if I think that the bell is a "multiple location model that can normally be hit separately (by templates, but that is my opinion)," the answer is no.
The rule says, "multiple location model that can normally be hit separately." As stated before 'normally' is referring to the previous sentence which describes what it means to be hit normally by a template. Secondly, even if you don't agree with what 'normally' means, the way the bell works in combat and shooting can hardly be considered 'normal.' Normally, models do not have specific rules describing how it works in combat or shooting. Its a unique unit with all of its own special (in other words, not normal) rules. Again, if this is another way to ask me if I think that the bell is a "multiple location model that can normally be hit separately," the answer is no.
Yes, precisely. We are in the template section of the book, they describe what it means to 'normally' be hit by a template. GW uses 'normally' in the next sentence. I can't think of any other way to interpret what 'normally' means. |
| Tbone's Nasty Rats | |
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| OrleanKnight | 9th December 2010 - 08:46 PM Post #79 |
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Clanrat
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If this dispute is whether or not a Template hits a Grey Seer on a Bell, I go by a few rules. A. I consider the the Screaming Bell is a unique Unit, and is dealt with in a number of ways. If you take a look at the Special Rules it has, simply apply general logic to what it is, what it does, and what it can do - and apply Rules as Implied because Rules as Written are not fully covered in exact detail. B. Screaming Bell is a mixture of: War Machine, Chariot, Ridden Monster, and Large Target. 1. When hit with a Template, I refer to Ridden Monsters on p. 105 of the small Rule Book: "If you use a weapon or spell that uses a template against a monster mount, both the riders and the mount are automatically hit if the monster's base is touched by the template (this includes bouncing cannonballs). In the case of a stone thrower, which inflicts at different strength, randomise as per shooting which (the rider or mount) take the highest strength hit. Afterwords, distribute the remainder of hits with the lower strength to the monster/mount - whomever was lucky enough to not take the high-strength hit. " 2. Also, I refer to War Machines, taking note the crew take cover behind the structure and gain the War Machine's toughness. This however does not include the Grey Seer, as he has exposed himself in a vulnerable position like any Rider on a Monster - they don't share stats. 3. Chariots: In that the Screaming Bell doesn't have to take a Monster Reaction test if the rider is slain. 4. Large Target: A Grey Seer cannot accept a 'Look Our Sir!' and is vulnerable to Snipe, as it states on p. 75 "A sniper shot can ever target a character riding on the back of a ridden monster or chariot if he wishes, or indeed a specific model where the target is usually rolled for randomly (such as a character who had joined a war machine). 5. Because it a mount, killing the Grey Seer doesn't merit any VP until the Bell is destroyed. Unless your Seer is General, then they'll gain 100 points for the effort. |
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| Yobtar | 10th December 2010 - 03:31 AM Post #80 |
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Grey Seer - Summoner of Verminlords
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This logic is totally flawed. The Bell/Furnace are unique troop types and only unique troop types. They are not a hodgepodge of this and that with a sprinkling of whatchamacallit thrown in. According to the BRB pg 87 "the unit entry in the relevant Warhammer Armies book will contain ALL (emphasis mine) the special rules and information you need to get your unique unit into the fray!" That pretty much sums it up all for me. All the rules I need to field a SB/PF are in the Skaven army book. |
![]() How can we have a 9 page FAQ? | |
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| turmi110 | 10th December 2010 - 04:59 AM Post #81 |
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Chieftain
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Does this include how to fight in close combat? What the stat profile means and does? How to take a characteristic test? What an impact hit does? I could go on and list more cases of rules that are not in the skaven army book for the bell/furnace that you absolutely must have in order to field one, but I believe I've made my point, clearly not every rule that you need to field a bell is included in its bestiary profile. I'm sure you already knew this, but by what you wrote in that sentence I thought I better clear it up just in case. According to the BRB pg 87 "the unit entry in the relevant Warhammer Armies book will contain all the SPECIAL RULES (emphasis mine) and information you need to get your unique unit into the fray!". Special rules are the things listed after the "Special Rules" section in the army bestiary section, nothing more. If you try and say that it also says that it includes ALL the information you need, I refer you back to my first paragraph in this post. |
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| OrleanKnight | 10th December 2010 - 05:09 AM Post #82 |
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Clanrat
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I believe my logic is absolutely spot-on, thank you very much. |
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| Yobtar | 10th December 2010 - 12:58 PM Post #83 |
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Grey Seer - Summoner of Verminlords
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You are correct and what I posted above did not exactly convey what I was trying to say which you managed to clarify. Obviously the army book doesnt contain all the rules that one needs to field a unique unit type but it does contain all the special rules that the unique unit has. Which to me clarifies the whole discussion of this thread. What happens when you shoot at a SB/PF? pg 43 of the army book tells you all you need to know. |
![]() How can we have a 9 page FAQ? | |
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| Yobtar | 10th December 2010 - 12:59 PM Post #84 |
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Grey Seer - Summoner of Verminlords
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double post |
![]() How can we have a 9 page FAQ? | |
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| Ratarsed | 10th December 2010 - 03:14 PM Post #85 |
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Grey Seer
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Except when you shoot at them with cannons. Then page 9 of the rulebook tells you all you need to know. As I said before, the argument is now about opinions. Do you think that being a unique unit allows you to trump basic rules for templates or not? I say no, you say yes and never the twain shall meet. |
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| OrleanKnight | 10th December 2010 - 06:59 PM Post #86 |
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Clanrat
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Clearly Yobtar, you're a very poor and uninformed player that doesn't play his army correctly. This is bound to happen, and does quite a bit - in this game.. People see rules in different ways, thus why I find it impossible to play this game on a random basis. You seriously just need to play it with a close group of friends who can let you cheat your ass off, like you apparently want to do. |
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| Sleboda | 10th December 2010 - 07:07 PM Post #87 |
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Pensive Penguins Fan
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Actually, the twain must be somewhere in my left ventricle. I think you use both rules as they don't actually conflict. |
True scholars have more than just one book to study.
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| ratboy1018 | 10th December 2010 - 07:26 PM Post #88 |
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Lab rat hard at work
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Wow Knight... harsh.
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| tbone | 10th December 2010 - 10:45 PM Post #89 |
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Grey Seer
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Totally uncalled for!! It's even especially hypocritical if you use army builder, as many skaven players do, because Yobtar does all the coding for the skaven book. His work has been peer-reviewed, so you claiming he cheats his ass off, is completely ludicrous. Speaking of ludicrous....your rules for the bell....I think anyone would have a hard time agreeing with that.... If you like calling GW a lot, ask them about that interpretation of the rules or anyone for that matter This is an example about what I was talking about before. Some people are making this discussion about the other people, not the rules.... LETS FOCUS PEOPLE! Back to my most recent question, consistently avoided:
Agreed.
Come on, that doesn't make any sense at all. If you cannot direct any attacks at him or randomize shooting, how the heck do you kill him. Of course, if you do direct attacks or randomize shooting, that would mean that you'd have to believe that a war machine with an engineer would also be considered a "multiple location model that can normally be hit separately," just like the bell. Meaning it would be hit twice by templates. I must say I'm still interested to hear what peoples opinions are on a template vs. and anvil, cauldron, or casket... as well as anyone elses opinion on how templates work vs. bullies and engineers. |
| Tbone's Nasty Rats | |
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| razaan | 10th December 2010 - 11:43 PM Post #90 |
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Chieftain
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I can't think of any instance in any discussion where I've felt Yobtar was misinformed nor has he ever given any indication that he was playing his army incorrectly. I think your personal attack is stretching it, considering this entire conversation is over a personal interpretation of a specific rule that could, quite honestly, swing either way. Keep the discussion civil and leave the personal attacks out of it. |
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