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Pros and cons of weapon team vs lvl 1 warlock
Topic Started: 15th November 2010 - 05:58 PM (1,080 Views)
Kevlar
Doomwheel Driver
1. Warlock engineer level 1, no upgrades, default to warp lightning

Move and fire
24" d6 Str 5 hits
1+ look out sir, and can't be targetted by most things inside a unit
2 wounds
very rarely miscasts on 2 dice
can be dispelled

2. weapon team
Move or fire (except PWG)
short range, usually less than 24"
4+ look out sir only when close to parent unit
1 wound
armor save
misfires 1/6
not accurate

I don't know, the more i think about it the more I want to replace my fairly incompetent weapon teams with cheap warlocks with warp lightning. Anyone tried a mass of cheap lvl 1 warlocks? I am thinking 4-5 of them naked except for the token doomrocket. They cost the same as the mortar, and should be at least that effective.

I figure with an average Winds of Magic I should be able to get off 4 warp lightning casts, maybe two will be dispelled?
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BrainGorger


That is a really good question, i was wondering the same. I would think the Warlocks, they come out to about the same points, and give you more options really. Casting and counter-casting abilities, along with the ability to take gear if you want/have the points. overall i think they are a better option. and since they hide in a squad it is alot harder to pick them out, unlike weaponteams that you can attack directly.
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CapAmr05
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The problem with massed warlocks is by the time you get to # 3 or 4 there won't be a whole lot of casting dice available to throw numerous warplightnings; especially if you plan on throwing 2 per attempt.

I think a naked engineer with the various nefarious devices would be a better way to go.

Personally I don't use engineers nor weapon teams in any sort of consistent basis in 8th edition so all of my opinions are conjecture and annecdotal from other players.

--Cap
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Wargamejunkie
Warlord
How about the poor mans Wizard? The warlock with the Ruby Ring, cheap

In my last couple of games I ran a lvl 1 with Condenser and Doom Rocket. He has been demoted to just Doom Rocket carrier due to miscasts and warp-lighting killing him off.
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BrainGorger


So maybe 2-3 set for casting and the rest just to be cheesy heros to add punch to squads? Hmm, ill have to try it out, maybe just adding a WarpPistol or Musket to the Warlocks, just to give them a bit of cheap punch on the battlefield. but that woudl add up in points....
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Moggrash
Clanrat
Sorry people, Warp Lightning ain't a signature spell so you can only have one wizard in the army with Warp Lightning. I'm pretty sure about this atleast.
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BrainGorger


Well it does say he can replace his spell with WL, dosent that allow more then one to take it? (still not 100% on rules for that)
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Warlock Matik
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BrainGorger
Nov 15 2010, 06:59 PM
Well it does say he can replace his spell with WL, dosent that allow more then one to take it? (still not 100% on rules for that)

This is correct, any number of warlocks (plus Ikit) can have warp-lightning in the same army since they are clearly allowed to swap for it. (pg 490 in the BRB, bullet point at top of second column)

Another difference between weapon teams and warlocks is that their points count towards different sections, i.e weapon teams will help you reach the 25% min core (although they probably shouldn't have to) while warlocks will eat into your hero points.

If you want to be able to cast all of the spells each turn more reliably you could perhaps invest in warpstone tokens, although they will bump up the cost of each warlock quite a bit...
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tbone
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Grey Seer
you pointed out that 1/6 misfires on a weapons teams, but failed to mention that engineers casting WL basically misfire 1/6 as well. I just thought it should be considered.

As for running numerous WL warlocks idea. I think there is some diminishing returns when it comes to adding more wizards. One way to look at wizards is that you are basically paying for spells. I hypothesize that the most efficient (not paying any more than you need too) magic phases are those where you attempt to utilize all the spells that your army has. Basically, rolling 3 dice on the "winds" and having 5 WE who have WL, is a major waste. Conversely, rolling 11 would rock. But, consider, is there really that much more utility in 5th WE? What about the 4th, or 3rd?

My rule of thumb is to have about 2 to 3 spells per 1000 points.

The only way I could see it working out is to have numerous ways to generate extra power dice i.e. channeling and magic items.
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ratwhowouldbeking
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Clanrat
Using a mass of Warlocks also precludes using a Grey Seer (well, at least it makes taking one a waste of points), whereas weapon teams are useful in any list. I think you've really passed over what a downside using power dice is. And even if you don't care about not having other magic, sometimes you're going to roll low for your dice and won't have enough to cast with everyone (and it'll all just get dispelled).

Weapon teams also have a number of useful properties you didn't mention, depending on their type, including: forcing panic tests, bypassing armor, flaming attacks, stand & shoot.

To me, Warp Lightning on its own isn't a powerful or versatile enough spell to give up all of my spellcasting. It's a great spell to be sure, but I feel it's meant to suit an arsenal rather than hold up entire rounds of shooting.

Granted, I don't think I've ever laughed so maniacally as when my Engineer (sitting on a hill) fried a lone Chaos Sorcerer General who had wandered out of LOS! range with 8 (!) Warp Lightning bolts.
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Rakashani
Warlord
You've left out one critical piece of information, Kevlar.

What magic do you already have in your list and how much of your character allotment are you using? A lvl 1 Engineer is pretty effective *if* you have the casting dice for him and he's not depriving you of a more important character.

I assume that you have ~200 points of BSB (assuming he has a magical banner). Maybe you want a Lvl 1 or Lvl 2 Engineer with Condenser and Doomrocket (I know I do) already. Maybe you have an assassin in the list?

The rest comes down to what kind of lists you face. I loves me some WFT to deal with ranked 20mm models but I have a list designed to slow them down so I can pound on them. If I am facing T3 man-things I loves me some PWM to throw at his BSB every single turn looking for a failed LO,S. roll. These are things you cannot do with Warplightning. (I also already make use of all my casting dice for things so I wouldn't be casting Warplightning anyway.)

Sure, you are Skaven which means you misfire 1 in 6 with WFT, WLC and Doomwheel. 1 in 3 with PWM or PCC. On the flip side you do some incredible damage if you hit a ranked unit with a WFT or the template from a WLC. PCCs are also great in combination with Wither.

I have to admit though that I have started phasing out PWMs from my list. WFTs are better suited to my play-style and are more reliable because of the nature of the misfire odds combined with their rarer firing opportunities.
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Kevlar
Doomwheel Driver
Rakashani
Nov 15 2010, 03:53 PM
You've left out one critical piece of information, Kevlar.

What magic do you already have in your list and how much of your character allotment are you using?  A lvl 1 Engineer is pretty effective *if* you have the casting dice for him and he's not depriving you of a more important character.

I assume that you have ~200 points of BSB (assuming he has a magical banner).  Maybe you want a Lvl 1 or Lvl 2 Engineer with Condenser and Doomrocket (I know I do) already.  Maybe you have an assassin in the list?

The rest comes down to what kind of lists you face.  I loves me some WFT to deal with ranked 20mm models but I have a list designed to slow them down so I can pound on them.  If I am facing T3 man-things I loves me some PWM to throw at his BSB every single turn looking for a failed LO,S. roll.  These are things you cannot do with Warplightning.  (I also already make use of all my casting dice for things so I wouldn't be casting Warplightning anyway.)

Sure, you are Skaven which means you misfire 1 in 6 with WFT, WLC and Doomwheel.  1 in 3 with PWM or PCC.  On the flip side you do some incredible damage if you hit a ranked unit with a WFT or the template from a WLC.  PCCs are also great in combination with Wither.

I have to admit though that I have started phasing out PWMs from my list.  WFTs are better suited to my play-style and are more reliable because of the nature of the misfire odds combined with their rarer firing opportunities.

I am running a triple warlord list, magic is very minimal. I have a bunch of chieftans with halberds and can squeeze in 4-5 level one warlocks. BSB is just storm banner + shield.
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Wargamejunkie
Warlord
@Kevlar- That sounds interesting for a list. Mind sharing.

I think the best choice will depend on the rest of the options you are taking.

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Kevlar
Doomwheel Driver
Ok posted my list up in the army list section.

http://underempire.net/index.php?showtopic=36036
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Wargamejunkie
Warlord
Looking at the list I think what might work best for you is dropping a Warlock and upgrading the remaining ones to lvl 2.

That would give you a full range of the spells as I think Death Frenzy would be helpful and you may want the option for cracks call/skorch to handle the units you don't want to fight.

If you are more open to ideas I think a second WLC might work out even better.

If we are limited either a weapon team or engineer, I suggest a weapon team.
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