Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Add Reply
Brass Orb vs. Hydra
Topic Started: 9th November 2010 - 02:09 PM (1,714 Views)
Kevlar
Doomwheel Driver
turmi110
Nov 26 2010, 04:17 PM
I agree with nemesis final line though, while (s)he is not saying that this is the rule because a few tournaments say so, nemesis is happy enough that at least there was a concrete ruling for it at the tournaments (s)he entered, even if it wasn't in skaven favour.

Sorry but a mixed unit works just like our mixed unit. The fact that beasts and handlers have some additional restrictions on how you handle the handlers doesn't in any way make them monsters and riders. They are still a "mixed unit" where you just ignore the handlers for the most part. You don't get to make tests from the hydra using a completely different model's initiative, especially one like you said, you can't even hit with a template anyway.

That ruling is so made up its almost comical. I'd like to see something online where it was ruled that way.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
xxrathammerxx
Stormvermin
Agreed with Kevlar, no matter how fast the handlers are, they can't prompt a big, 16-ton monster to move out of the way of ANYTHING.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
PezCat
Member Avatar
Irrepressible Anklebiter
Okay, I just looked up the War Hydra in the Dark Elf book, as well as the Dark Elf FAQ. Perhaps this will help clear things up. Here is the word-for-word text on Monsters and Handlers from the BRB (note: I am using the IoB book, this is on Pg. 73 in there):

"The handlers aren't really a combat unit per se, so we ignore them for most gaming purposes, treating the monster itself as the extent of the unit. When the monster suffers an unsaved wound, roll a D6. On a roll of 1-4 the monster suffers the would as normal, but on a roll of 5-6 a handler model is removed instead. Once all the handlers have been removed, the monster must take a Monster Reaction test just like a ridden monster that loses its rider.

In close combat, the handlers can direct their attacks against any enemy in base contact with their monster. The handlers are otherwise assumed to have their hands too full controlling the monster to carry out any actions like shooting, or casting spells, etc. In addition the handlers cannot be charged, attacked, or otherwise affected separately from their monster -- if they are found to be blocking movement or line of sight, the controlling player simply alters their position, just as you would for any other battlefield marker or counter. If the monster is removed, so are its handlers."

Here's the verbatim text from the DE book re: Beastmasters.

"The bulk of the War Hydra makes a great shield for the Beastmasters that drive it, protecting them from arrows and other missiles. When hits would normally be randomised between the models of a unit, such as for shooting or a spell, such hits are not allocated randomly but instead are resolved against the War Hydra. In close combat, the Beastmasters are adept at using the bulk of the Hydra to protect themselves , so all enemies that can choose to attack them or the Hydra must allocate their attacks against the Hydra.

If the Beastmasters are killed the War Hydra must make a Monster Reaction test just like a ridden monster that loses its rider. When calculating victory points, the Beastmasters are always ignored -- assume that the Hydra was fighting on its own as a one-model unit.

Only the Beastmasters themselves have the skill to control such a ferocious beast. Therefore, no other model may join a War Hydra unit."

Here is the FAQ text, also verbatim:

"Change the Beastmasters special rule to “Beastmasters: The bulk of the War Hydra makes a great shield for the Beastmasters that drive it, protecting them from missile fire and close combat attacks. Wounds that would normally be randomised between the War Hydra and its handlers are instead all applied against the War Hydra.”"



In reading this, the War Hydra is designated as a UNIT, not a MODEL, and therefore the monster uses its own initiative, not the initiative of the handlers. It also, in the case of randomised hits, takes all of the hits for the unit. The FAQ changes the text to indicate that handlers avoid hits in close combat as well instead of just missile fire - that's all the FAQ seems to change.

Since the Orb is a template weapon, there's nothing in any of this that says that the Hydra can use the Handler initiative, since they are separate models. Just because they are moved aside "like counters" doesn't mean they ARE counters. They are still models, still treated as such, and therefore still have to keep their Initiative values separate. If the template hits the handlers as well, then they all test, separately, at individual initiative, and survivors are left on the table.

MUTATE: changed my wording slightly for clarity.
8th Ed: 2-0-0
Last Game: 1500, Vampire Counts, Win - Tabled on Turn 5

Self-Detonations This Game: Warp Lightning Cannon (Turn 1), Ratling Gun (Turn 2), Vampire via miscast (Turn 4), Warlock Engineer via miscast (Turn 4), Poisoned Wind Mortar (Turn 4).

Note: Vampire's Miscast took 4 zombies, 1 skeleton, and 3 skavenslaves with him. Doomwheel did not die, but did wound itself on Turn 4.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
« Previous Topic · Fantasy Battles Rules Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply