| Brass Orb vs. Hydra | ||
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| Tweet Topic Started: 9th November 2010 - 02:09 PM (1,716 Views) | ||
| Pestilent Lord | 10th November 2010 - 04:35 AM Post #31 | |
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Doomwheel Driver
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There is that. And there is also the fact that the pg. 10 reference is that when a unit with multiple values takes a test, it uses the best value. But if models are forced to take a test, they use the best value for the model. So if the effect was 'Unit takes Init test or dies' the handlers might be in (barring the whole 'mostly ignore handlers' dilemma). However the effect is 'Model takes Init test or dies' and the best I-value a Hydra has access to is it's own. |
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“A player is never late, Dave. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when the plot dictates he should.” Skaven 7th: W/L/D 6/5/2 High Elves: 2/3/1 | ||
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| Sleboda | 10th November 2010 - 05:37 PM Post #32 | |
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Pensive Penguins Fan
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Since the handlers are not really models, but function much more like parts of the hydra unit, it appears that we have a unit, consisting of one model, that has multiple I values. Note that I am not trying to be argumentative, and don't even necessarily support the line of thought I am putting out there. I am playing devil's advocate so that when my opponent tries to defend using the I of the handlers and/or deflecting the effect of the orb to a handler instead of the hydra I can at least have a well reasoned counter to his desires. |
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True scholars have more than just one book to study.
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| Rakashani | 12th November 2010 - 08:58 PM Post #33 | |
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Warlord
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Ah, but the single model does *not* have multiple stat lines. If all the handlers die, the Hydra is still on the table, unmodified and still have it's original (single) statline. There are counters/models which function as ablative ward saves which can be combined with other ward saves which give a bonus attack if they have not been used/killed and the monster is in combat. I'm surprised how hard people are trying to make the Monster and Handler rules. You have a single model (the Hydra) which represents the entirity of the unit. In addition, there are handlers represented by tokens or models which have no impact on things on the table (targetting, movement, charges) but which allow bonus attacks. There's no section in the rules (which is how this differs from cavalry) saying to treat the handlers as part of the Monster model. There's no section describing them as a combined profile. There's nothing in the Monster unit rules to suggest anything unusual here. Everything that has been cited as a comparison to monstrous cav or cav or ridden monster has specific verbiage in the rules which is missing for Monsters and Monster and Handler rules. |
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| Sleboda | 12th November 2010 - 09:59 PM Post #34 | |
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Pensive Penguins Fan
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So, if you swing a wound-doubling weapon at a hydra and randomize the damage to 'handlers' the doubled wound would take out both, right? | |
True scholars have more than just one book to study.
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| Kevlar | 12th November 2010 - 11:29 PM Post #35 | |
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Doomwheel Driver
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I'd say no, since they are single wound counters the most you can ever do to them is one wound with a multi-wound weapon. If it hits the hydra and wounds then you would get the multi-wound roll but not if it randomized to a handler. Do they randomize for close combat though or is it just shooting? |
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| Pestilent Lord | 13th November 2010 - 01:03 AM Post #36 | |
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Doomwheel Driver
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Take a look at the Dark Elf FAQ and you'll discover that a Hydra is different from other Monster and Handlers units. A Hydra's handlers will never have a wound randomized onto them because of the new version of the Beastmasters rule. |
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“A player is never late, Dave. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when the plot dictates he should.” Skaven 7th: W/L/D 6/5/2 High Elves: 2/3/1 | ||
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| SkavenDan | 13th November 2010 - 08:55 PM Post #37 | |
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Doomwheel Fanatic
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*Yeah I would love know how randomized attacks work vs some thing that has all damage allocated to the hydra.* *= sarcasm |
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| Pestilent Lord | 13th November 2010 - 09:35 PM Post #38 | |
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Doomwheel Driver
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I'm afraid I don't quite understand your question. The Dark Elf FAQ says that attacks never randomize to the handlers, any time something should randomize to the handlers, they all hit the Hydra. |
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“A player is never late, Dave. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when the plot dictates he should.” Skaven 7th: W/L/D 6/5/2 High Elves: 2/3/1 | ||
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| SkavenDan | 13th November 2010 - 09:45 PM Post #39 | |
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Doomwheel Fanatic
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Sorry lordi perhaps I should have added this is sarcasm to my post ![]() FAQs are a must for any games workshop game. Hell I read more stuff about warhammer and FAQs than I do about my uni course lol. |
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| Waq | 16th November 2010 - 06:21 PM Post #40 | |
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Clanrat
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Unfortunately, page 10 of the BRB is written in a general enough way that the Hydra selection could fit into the rule. There is nothing that I have seen that disqualifies it. It is a unit with multiple stat lines. You can never remove the handlers. You can never target the handlers. The handlers are part of the unit and have a stat line of their own. They may/may not be part of the hydra model, but they are always a part of the unit. And page 10 BRB is pretty clear here. Again, I have still seen nothing that contradicts this. Thats what we need to find. If you can show me where it says the handlers are not part of the unit, then I am sold. If you can show me where it tells us to ignore the handlers for characteristic tests, then I am sold. I think this might be arguable under the 'Monster and Handler rules. It's not a matter of trying to make the handlers rules harder, its a matter if trying to play the game by the rules. I just haven't seen anything definitive is all. |
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| Rakashani | 16th November 2010 - 07:43 PM Post #41 | |
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Warlord
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The simplest answer to that, Wag, is to appeal to the English language. The M&H rules say that the Handlers are ignored for almost all purposes and then list the one case where they are not ignored (extra attacks). It would seem, based on how English works, that this is establishing a precedent and then listing the exceptions. No exception is provided for anything *except* making attacks. If you want something more concrete you're going to be waiting for an Errata. |
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| turmi110 | 16th November 2010 - 10:10 PM Post #42 | |
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Chieftain
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There are two different characteristic tests. Individual tests on a model or models, and a test that the unit has to take as a group. The characteristics section say you use the highest characteristic available to the model (or unit). It isn't spelled out exactly, but is implied that individual tests use the models highest value, unit tests use the units highest value. For example, dwellers below causes every model in a unit to take a characteristic test, but as they are all individual tests, they use their own characteristics. The net of amtntok is a unit test, use the units highest value. The orb creates individual tests, so even if the handlers were part of the hydra unit, they would have to be part of the hydra model itself in order for the hydra to benefit from their initiative for characteristic tests. Also the part in the monsters and handlers rule that says "The handlers aren't really a combat unit per se, so we ignore them for most gaming purposes, treating the monster itself as the extent of the unit." I keep coming back to this sentence (think I've quoted it half a dozen times by now :P) because to me it explains a lot. "Ignore the handlers for most gaming purposes", this is generally taken in two ways. 1. Treat the handlers as you would anything else in the game, except for where the rulebook specifies otherwise, or 2. The handlers are ignored for all rules purposes, unless the monster/handlers rules specifically include them. If you follow view 1. then you would say that the handlers are part of the monster, like a mount on a cavalry model. Therefore hydra can use the handlers initiative etc. If you follow view 2. then you would say that nothing in the handlers rules say they are allowed to help the hydra in characteristic tests, therefore the hydra is on his own for that one. ps I'm in camp 2. |
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| nemesis1020 | 26th November 2010 - 04:09 PM Post #43 | |
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Clanrat
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All of the 8th Ed. tournaments I have been to so far treat the Hydra and Beastmasters as a single unit; therefore, it has been allowed to use the Beastmaster's init. I don't care either way to be honest, just want to avoid arguements in tournaments and have consistency. |
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| Kevlar | 26th November 2010 - 06:56 PM Post #44 | |
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Doomwheel Driver
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I don't see how this is. The hydra is not a ridden monster. They are separate models. It would be like a rat ogre and packmaster. A template hits what it hits, the mixed unit rules don't work like a ridden monster. |
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| turmi110 | 26th November 2010 - 09:17 PM Post #45 | |
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Chieftain
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Rat ogre and packmaster vs Hydra and beastmaster are two very different things. Wounds on the rat ogres cannot be randomised onto the packmasters afterall, and you can move through beastmasters and just shift them out of the way, you cannot do that with packmasters. The monsters and handlers rules say to treat the unit as if the monster is the extent of the unit for most gaming purposes, what these purposes are is the subject of much debate however. That is where the brass orb vs hydra problem festers. If you ignore the beastmasters for most gaming purposes, including line of sight, movement restrictions etc, how can you so casually say the template can hit them? On the other hand, how can I so casually say that because they are ignored for purposes of LoS and movement restrictions, they are also ignored for purposes of what is hit by template based on the line that they are ignored for most gaming purposes? Unfortunately GW didn't say that they are ignored for ALL gaming purposes except those listed below, neither did they say they are treated like all other models EXCEPT those listed below, they kinda just went with the grey area, letting us argue over what gaming purposes the handlers follow. I agree with nemesis final line though, while (s)he is not saying that this is the rule because a few tournaments say so, nemesis is happy enough that at least there was a concrete ruling for it at the tournaments (s)he entered, even if it wasn't in skaven favour. |
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