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Brass Orb vs. Hydra
Topic Started: 9th November 2010 - 02:09 PM (1,717 Views)
tbone
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Why would someone think think they share a stat line? They both have complete stat lines...

Mutate: I understand the difference between I 2 and I 6. I just don't understand what is leading people to think they share stats. What am I missing?
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turmi110
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tbone
Nov 9 2010, 08:44 PM
Rakashani
Nov 9 2010, 08:15 PM
Is there something in the Hyrda rules beyond Monster & Handlers?

The M&H rules are pretty explicit...  The Handlers are ablative 5+ ward-saves that get to make attacks until they are gone.  They don't base anything, they don't block anything, they can't do anything except aim attacks at the models basing the Monster.  They don't count for targetting either so if you put the orb on the hydra and scatter off the hydra but onto a handler there is no effect.  They are simply counters for the model.

Given the DE FAQ, you would not even worry about randomizing here.  The monster is the only part of the unit that matters.  If he tries to claim that this is a situation where the handlers matter you can simply pull out your BRB and point out that the exception where you admit the handlers exist is explicitly covered right there in the text and there is nothing to indicate that they exist any other time.

All these rules you are referring to all have to deal with randomizing wounds,....the brass orb does NOT wound anything...

How can you say "they are simply counters for the model?"

That is an assumption.

The only thing about it says about handlers acting as markers or counters is "if they are found to be blocking movement, or line of sight."

Clearly, the using an orb on a hydra has nothing to do with blocking LOS or movement...

I don't see why someone couldn't kill a handler with an orb.

Couple of sentences in the monsters and handlers rules disagree with your statement that the orb can kill the handlers. First off "The handlers aren't really a combat unit per se, so we ignore them for most gaming purposes, treating the monster itself as the extent of the unit." To me that sounds like the units footprint is just the base that the hydra is standing on, where the handlers stand is irrelevant. Secondly, and more clearly, "In addition the handlers cannot be charged, attacked, or otherwise affected separately from their monster. They cannot be hit by the orb, even if the template rests squarely on their heads, because the handlers being hit by a template would affect them completely separately from the hydra, which isn't allowed. They have no physical presence on the battlefield.

Now, as to what happens if the hydra is hit by a template, tbone I agree with you, even if you did randomise wounds on the hydra, the orb doesn't wound, therefore no randomisation. That applies to all monsters and handlers. As for the characteristic test, you are allowed to use the models highest characteristic that is available to them. I'm going to quote again part of this sentence ".... treating the monster itself as the extent of the unit". Now from the characteristic tests section "Where a model (or a unit) has more than one value for the same characteristic, as is the case with cavalry, for example, a characteristic test is always taken against the highest of the values." Does the hydra and handlers unit have more than one characteristic for initiative for the purpose of a characteristic test? I would say no. The monsters and handlers section says the monster is to be treated as the extent of the unit, that to me says that handlers are completely ignored, except for a very few cases outlined in the monsters and handlers rules, namely striking in close combat, and ablative 5+ ward saves. Sure, the handlers have an initiative characteristic, but they can only use it when the monster is in close combat to make their extra strikes as that is one of the only times the monster and handlers rule allows their presence to be known.

Short summary of my ramblings, handlers cannot be hit by the orb separately, only the hydra footprint is of significance. Use the hydras initiative characteristic, if it fails, it dies (handlers will of course die with it, or run away, or curl up in a ball and cry over the loss of their pet, or otherwise rendered useless/insignificant).

oh and ps
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Why would someone think think they do share a stat line? They both have complete stat lines...


Cavalry have split profiles, both the rider and mount have complete stat lines. For the purposes of characteristic tests you'd use the highest value between them, so they 'share' stat lines despite their complete stat lines.
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Kevlar
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Sounds to me like someone is trying to confuse the Hydra monster and handler rules with the ridden monster rules. Completely different animal. The Hydra can never use the handlers stats to pass a test other than leadership.
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tbone
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Never thought i'd quote myself
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The operative word is "most," it doesn't say "all." I would contend this is one of those gaming purposes in which they are used. The Hydra is a model, the handlers are models too.


the crux of your argument is, correct me if I'm wrong, is "They (the handlers) have no physical presence on the battlefield."

If this is true why wouldn't GW just come out and say it.

Interestingly "the crew," in regard to war machine rules, are very similar to the handler rules. Seriously, check it out pg 108. Some parts are nearly word for word.

Using your logic, if one was to cast plague on a war machine, that it could test on the toughness of the warmachine and not its crew.
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SkavenDan
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Kevlar
Nov 9 2010, 11:14 PM
Sounds to me like someone is trying to confuse the Hydra monster and handler rules with the ridden monster rules.  Completely different animal.  The Hydra can never use the handlers stats to pass a test other than leadership.

+1

This is correct .
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Sleboda
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tbone
Nov 9 2010, 01:39 PM
. The Hydra is a model, the handlers are models too.

You know what? They're really kinda not.

What other "models" do you know of that you simply move out of the way for LoS or movement? There really is no game need to even deploy the handlers. They are extra wounds and attacks for the hydra. But are they an Initiative boost?
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Sleboda
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mellr0
Nov 9 2010, 02:39 PM
If the hydra was charged from all sides, the handlers would be in B2B and therefore be able to be attacked. Theres no avoiding wounding them.

Its not a monster with extra markers. Its a monster, with 2 handlers, where there is no randomization, just straight on the monster. There is no wiggle room, because if a model is touched by a template... its hit. its 3 models, not one.

Not true. The rules in the BRB actually tell us that when wounds are taken, you roll to see where. The handlers are non-models. Heck, you could model your hydra to have the handlers on its back if you wanted.
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tbone
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tbone
Nov 9 2010, 01:39 PM
.  The Hydra is a model, the handlers are models too.

You know what? They're really kinda not.

What other "models" do you know of that you simply move out of the way for LoS or movement?

pg 108 "The Crew" Paragraph 2

"The crew cannot be charged, attached or otherwise affected separately from their war machine - if they are found to be blocking movement or line of sight, the controlling player simply alters their position, just as you would for any other battlefield marker or counter."
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SkavenDan
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Since you like quoting show me the line that says you can use the dark elf init :D
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tbone
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SkavenDan
Nov 10 2010, 12:36 AM
Since you like quoting show me the line that says you can use the dark elf init  :D

Ha, love quoting, but even I can't do that :P
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SkavenDan
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It is kinda dumb when you think about it if they can herd it into a fight why can't they poke it out of the way.
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Kevlar
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SkavenDan
Nov 9 2010, 07:43 PM
It is kinda dumb when you think about it if they can herd it into a fight why can't they poke it out of the way.

They try to, its just really slow.
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SkavenDan
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Another blip if it were slow it should have a low M value but it does not.
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Stripsteak
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SkavenDan
Nov 9 2010, 09:28 PM
Another blip if it were slow it should have a low M value but it does not.

not necessarily related.
it probably only takes 1 step for every 3-4 the handlers take. this makes it 'slower' than them, but moving as far or farther.
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Waq
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Page 10 of BRB under characteristic tests tells us that when a model or unit has more then one value for a characteristic, as in calvary for example, a characteristic test is always taken against the highest value.

I don't see an exception to this for the Hydra in the brb, but I dont' have the DE book either, only the DE FAQ.

edit: Although, you could read the Montsers and Handlers rule to say the handlers are ignored except in the specific circumstances it states in the rules (randomization of wounds and directing the handlers attacks in h2h).
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