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Brass Orb vs. Hydra
Topic Started: 9th November 2010 - 02:09 PM (1,715 Views)
Sleboda
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I have a game coming up in which I am quite likely to be facing two hydras. In the search for ways to deal, I have spent some time thinking about the Orb.

I read the Monster and Handlers rule and it looks like there is some wiggle room to allow a handler to take the full effect of the orb, saving the hydra from I2 doom.

First off, do you think the rule about randomizing the damage applies to the Orb?

Second, would the Dark Elf player have a leg to stand on if he claimed he could use the Initiative value of the handlers to avoid the Orb?

Lastly, can anyone think of some excellent ways to take on two hydras at 2400 pts? I am thinking about sending in my Fellblade warlord on rat ogre, but between regeneration and the 'handler save' I think I am unlikely to see him kill the hydras. Ideas?
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razaan
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I had luck with Slaves tying them up then smacking them with the warpfire thrower. They save on a 6+ with no regen, doing d3 wounds. Then you can follow up with any other shooting you have (doomwheel, jezzails, wlc, etc) and ignore that pesky regen save for the phase.

Another option is to hit them with Scorch, then follow up with some warp lightning goodness. The Scorch will nullify their regeneration for the phase, and the warp lightning will knock them down. Of course this requires some decent rolls to wound, etc...

As for hitting them with Initiative test stuff, I don't think it works. I think they can use the initiative of the handlers to resolve that stuff.
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Waq
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The Dark Elf FAQ states that the wounds normally randomized to the handlers are instead applied to the Hydra.

The Orb doesn't wound though, so it really comes down to hit.

I don't have a DE book, so I'm not sure how the FAQ changes the rules for the handlers, or how we might randomize hits against the unit.

In my tourney list, I have a Seer who can roll cracks call. I also run 2 WLC. I do have 2 units of 50 slaves as well.

At Northstar tourney last weekend I fought a double hydra list. Was able to cracks call the first one, and fed the second hydra a unit of slaves, which it duly ate and then overran into my clanrat unit. But it took enough time getting through my slaves that it couldn't finish clannies in time.
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Sleboda
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Waq
Nov 9 2010, 10:26 AM


At Northstar tourney last weekend I fought a double hydra list. Was able to cracks call the first one...

Which Initiative value did you use?
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Waq
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He used the Hydra and I didn't even think about the handlers initiative. The crack hit the hydra only.

I wonder, if you put your handlers on your base and make them a single unit (like the monster and handler rules suggest) I could see using the handlers initiative value.

We probably played this one wrong.

Using the handler initiative here probably reduces the effectiveness of the black orb to the point of not taking it.
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Sleboda
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Waq
Nov 9 2010, 10:57 AM
He used the Hydra and I didn't even think about the handlers initiative. The crack hit the hydra only.

Keep in mind that it doesn't matter if the crack touches the handlers. They are, essentially, wound markers. They have _zero_ presence on the battlefield as models Still, there is some room to argue that you get to use their I, which is part of my Brass Orb debate.
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Waq
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Sleboda
Nov 9 2010, 11:22 AM
Waq
Nov 9 2010, 10:57 AM
He used the Hydra and I didn't even think about the handlers initiative.  The crack hit the hydra only.

Keep in mind that it doesn't matter if the crack touches the handlers. They are, essentially, wound markers. They have _zero_ presence on the battlefield as models Still, there is some room to argue that you get to use their I, which is part of my Brass Orb debate.

Yeah, I agree.

They aren't there, but the profile is still part of the unit. I believe it should count as a single model with multiple stat profiles.

Ironically, the DE FAQ takes out the wound randomization onto the handlers, so they will never be removed as wound counters, but we won't have to randomize our shots onto them.
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Sleboda
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The M&H rules in the BRB still instruct us to split some wounds off to the handler 'tokens.'
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Waq
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Sleboda
Nov 9 2010, 11:52 AM
The M&H rules in the BRB still instruct us to split some wounds off to the handler 'tokens.'

Yes, but the Dark Elf FAQ states the wounds that would normally be randomised between the Hydra and handlers all go on the Hydra.

It's part of the Errata.
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tbone
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I also don't understand why everyone is talking about randomizing wounds, the brass orb doesn't "wound" anything. Its just a test or die. Because all the rules specifically call for the "randomization of wounds, " and no wounds are being are being distributed, who cares what the wound randomization rules say.

I understand that the handlers are often considered wound counters, and not used for "most" gaming purposes. The operative word is "most," it doesn't say "all." I would contend this is one of those gaming purposes in which they are used. The Hydra is a model, the handlers are models too. The brass orb affects models, so I think the orb should be used the way its intended, anything under or touching the template takes a test, plain and simple. The hydra and handlers both will take separate tests, if they are hit by the orb.

As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the rules about the Hydra and its handlers being considered a single model with multi-stat profiles.
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mellr0
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Why U do dis?!
If the hydra was charged from all sides, the handlers would be in B2B and therefore be able to be attacked. Theres no avoiding wounding them.

Its not a monster with extra markers. Its a monster, with 2 handlers, where there is no randomization, just straight on the monster. There is no wiggle room, because if a model is touched by a template... its hit. its 3 models, not one.
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Rakashani
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Is there something in the Hyrda rules beyond Monster & Handlers?

The M&H rules are pretty explicit... The Handlers are ablative 5+ ward-saves that get to make attacks until they are gone. They don't base anything, they don't block anything, they can't do anything except aim attacks at the models basing the Monster. They don't count for targetting either so if you put the orb on the hydra and scatter off the hydra but onto a handler there is no effect. They are simply counters for the model.

Given the DE FAQ, you would not even worry about randomizing here. The monster is the only part of the unit that matters. If he tries to claim that this is a situation where the handlers matter you can simply pull out your BRB and point out that the exception where you admit the handlers exist is explicitly covered right there in the text and there is nothing to indicate that they exist any other time.
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DNA Maniac
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Guys. with all do respect, are we reading the same book?

"The handlers arent really a combat unit per se, so we ignore them...." They can just attack or get a wound and in this case they cant get a wound.

"In addition the handlers cannot be acharged, attacked or otherwise affected seperatly from their monster - if they are found to be blocking movement or line of sight, the controlling player simply alters their position, just as you would for any other battlefield marker or counter. if the monster is removed, so are the handlers."

And no they do not "share" their profile w hydra.

And lets make sense hydra cannot avoid a danger just because its handler can?

Empire steam tank has an engineer on it so it uses its I right? no it cant...

Get to hit the hydra w your brass orb. if it fails as usual, remove it from the game. it is so simple. There is no page in the book saying" they use each others profile". And for other wounding stuff it says like "it happens exactly like this", it dosent say" cuz they share their profile".

Neek-neek!

Mutate: The hydra rules you newer randomise all wounds go to hydra!
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tbone
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Rakashani
Nov 9 2010, 08:15 PM
Is there something in the Hyrda rules beyond Monster & Handlers?

The M&H rules are pretty explicit...  The Handlers are ablative 5+ ward-saves that get to make attacks until they are gone.  They don't base anything, they don't block anything, they can't do anything except aim attacks at the models basing the Monster.  They don't count for targetting either so if you put the orb on the hydra and scatter off the hydra but onto a handler there is no effect.  They are simply counters for the model.

Given the DE FAQ, you would not even worry about randomizing here.  The monster is the only part of the unit that matters.  If he tries to claim that this is a situation where the handlers matter you can simply pull out your BRB and point out that the exception where you admit the handlers exist is explicitly covered right there in the text and there is nothing to indicate that they exist any other time.

All these rules you are referring to all have to deal with randomizing wounds,....the brass orb does NOT wound anything...

How can you say "they are simply counters for the model?"

That is an assumption.

The only thing about it says about handlers acting as markers or counters is "if they are found to be blocking movement, or line of sight."

Clearly, the using an orb on a hydra has nothing to do with blocking LOS or movement...

I don't see why someone couldn't kill a handler with an orb.
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razaan
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tbone
Nov 9 2010, 03:44 PM
Rakashani
Nov 9 2010, 08:15 PM
Is there something in the Hyrda rules beyond Monster & Handlers?

The M&H rules are pretty explicit...  The Handlers are ablative 5+ ward-saves that get to make attacks until they are gone.  They don't base anything, they don't block anything, they can't do anything except aim attacks at the models basing the Monster.  They don't count for targetting either so if you put the orb on the hydra and scatter off the hydra but onto a handler there is no effect.  They are simply counters for the model.

Given the DE FAQ, you would not even worry about randomizing here.  The monster is the only part of the unit that matters.  If he tries to claim that this is a situation where the handlers matter you can simply pull out your BRB and point out that the exception where you admit the handlers exist is explicitly covered right there in the text and there is nothing to indicate that they exist any other time.

All these rules you are referring to all have to deal with randomizing wounds,....the brass orb does NOT wound anything...

How can you say "they are simply counters for the model?"

That is an assumption.

The only thing about it says about handlers acting as markers or counters is "if they are found to be blocking movement, or line of sight."

Clearly, the using an orb on a hydra has nothing to do with blocking LOS or movement...

I don't see why someone couldn't kill a handler with an orb.

I think the debate has switched from what the handlers are counted as to:

Does the Hydra share a statline with the handlers? That's the crucial question.

The Hydra either stays Initiative 2 or changes to initiative 6 when hit with Crack's Call and Brass Orbs. That's the big impact here for Skaven players.
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