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| bait and flee still possible? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 27th October 2010 - 06:21 PM (809 Views) | |
| Paricidas | 27th October 2010 - 06:21 PM Post #1 |
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Doomwheel Driver
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If an enemy charges you and you flee from his charge, they enemy unit may only reform if it catched your cowards and stomps them into the ground. (I hope that I did not miss any of trhe reform rules here). So basically, the old "bait& flee"-tactic is still working? If it is still working, do you think it is still worth pulling off? |
| Ceterum censeo Altdorfem esse delendam | |
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| mellr0 | 27th October 2010 - 07:13 PM Post #2 |
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Why U do dis?!
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There is lots of bait and flee possible. Have you tried fleeing through your own unit to leave an enemy in range of the unit? |
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| Waaargh | 27th October 2010 - 10:11 PM Post #3 |
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Chieftain
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Noooo, it's a tactic. Stop it before the net implodes! |
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| CapAmr05 | 27th October 2010 - 10:47 PM Post #4 |
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The Bait and flee has been drastically reduced (especially against long range chargers), here's why; The tactic of bait and flee was to get your enemy to expose his units to flank charges/ counter charges by getting him to chase one unit. This tactic is no longer valid given that Skaven typically run with a screen of multiple units (slaves towards the center) and striking units just behind or out on the wings (anything with a little punch). Now when your opponent declares the one valid charge he had against your slaves, and they flee, he has the option of going after another unit, which if I were faced with the option of a failed charge or a redirect (at a plethora of new targets now that the slaves are out of the way), I'd take the redirect either way even if that one fails too. Even if that next charge fails, the unit is only likely to trot 4-5 inches (on average) forward, potentially still being outside a mid-counter charge range and most likely saving itself from trotting into range for the skaven wing units to be in the flanks. So the negatives of failing a first charge are greatly reduced, and a strong imposing combat unit can force the skaven to flee 2 units with each charge, limiting our numbers (which slides the advantage away from us). The ability to pull apart a battle line with fled charges is even further reduced against any unit with a musician, due to the numerous options for post move/ combat reforms. The solid tactic we have now in place of the "bait and flee" is the "steadfast hold", having a large unit capable of taking damage and still outranking the opponent while within the leadership and/or battle standard bubble. Holding with steadfast now grants us stopping power and the ability to set up counter charges against the unit, or simply moving on past them while they sit mired in an endless slave pit. It takes some getting used to and requires some prior turn planning and very much of it shoudl take into consideration your opponent's distance rolls and likely targets. --Cap |
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| Paricidas | 28th October 2010 - 02:40 AM Post #5 |
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Doomwheel Driver
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Thank you very much for the answer cap, the redirected charges are really making this tactic more difficult to pull off. There are probably tactics that work on frenzied units, but the old bait&flee is pretty much dead. Take into account that you get the flank for only one round, because afterwards the enemy unit gets its reform during CC and take into account that characters in the flanked unit may use "make way" and the advantages of a flank charge get even more diminished. Having half of your army run away just to get a flank for one round seems a little bit too much off an effort to really make bait&flee worth.... |
| Ceterum censeo Altdorfem esse delendam | |
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| Vermitt Stain | 28th October 2010 - 11:56 AM Post #6 |
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Brain: There's only one ride that interests me - the incredible thrill ride of taking over the world! Pinky: Mmm, I think there's a height requirement for that ride.
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i have to disagree bait and flee is still a very effective tactic in fact i think its more useful now with steadfast. yes it seems harder to pull of but i found once i got used to the new movement rules it was just as easy as it was before. you are on about only getting the flank for one turn but if you have the right units lined up you don't really need more than one turn also there is numbers you can use to your advantage and charge then with multiple units one so if he does turn your still in his side. although some units such a WC are a bit harder to break like this and you will probably need some rat ogres or other hammer units in the combat but then we had the exact same problem back in 7th edition, they just get an extra 4A whereas we depending on the unit gain bigger benefits in combat. to be honest part of this is likely to be me being stuck in my ways as a long time skaven player but i do still find bait and flee to be just as useful. stained |
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| Trulseren | 28th October 2010 - 03:01 PM Post #7 |
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Clanrat
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http://blognard.tumblr.com/ This blog pretty well breaks down how baiting works in 8th. I also think that using deep slave units to keep the enemy in place and combine charges to the flanks is the way to go now. I just haven't learned really how to do it yet
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| polybus | 28th October 2010 - 04:06 PM Post #8 |
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Stormvermin
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That blog article doesn't really apply to slaves since it suggests holding and then breaking and fleeing with the chaff unit but slaves will just blow up and the unit may reform. I guess the idea is to keep the heat off the real target unit (character bunker maybe?) for a turn. You will not be able to use this to open a flank charge on that unit though. You might as well just use a 15 pt warlock if speedbumping is your plan. He can hang out with the character bunker and then shoot out blocking a charge to the main unit to give time to the characters to maneuver or to get multiple tries at skitterleap. |
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| Nicodemus | 28th October 2010 - 07:14 PM Post #9 |
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Clanrat
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I find that slaves excel at holding up the enemy while near to the General and BSB, but offer little advantage to set up flank charges. Actually for me, charging into the flank of a unit engaged with slaves has been a major disadvantage, and here's why. A clever opponent will always strike at the slaves and kill a bunch of them for combat resolution, often making up for the ranks I am taking away for disrupting. Unless I am flanking with Rat Ogres or Plague Censer Beares, slaves offer the enemy too many wounds for CR for me to win combat and break them. So I line my slaves up across from the most threatening enemy unit and make sure the general/bsb are near. I then move my army past them and look for better matchups. The trick is to keep the General and BSB's units in safe locations, and in good position to support other units advancing. |
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| Paricidas | 28th October 2010 - 07:24 PM Post #10 |
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Doomwheel Driver
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Getting a flankcharge while 50 slaves hold the front is not that difficult, but then you will get a crappy CR, because the slaves "underdog" the enemy and lose more CR due to dead slaves than they give by their ranks (well, depends on what you use for flanking...). But how do really pull off a classic bait&flee in 8th? You definitifly need 3 units, two that flee and one that gets the flank charge in the next turn, but how exactly? If you line up two units of slaves and put a flanking unit behind them, then it goes like this: 1. enemy declares charge on 1st slave unit. 2. slaves flee 3. enemy redirects charge to the now visible flanking unit. As he can not get there without touching the second slave unit, he has to declare a second charge, on the second slave unit. 4. Second slave unit flees from enemy charge 5. the way is now free for the enemy to charge the flanking unit. 6. enemy fails charge, stumbles forward some feet but so what? |
| Ceterum censeo Altdorfem esse delendam | |
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| Ablabab | 29th October 2010 - 07:02 AM Post #11 |
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Chieftain
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The tactic is dead with 8th. It has grown so complex that thinking it into your battle plan will hobble you severely. |
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| Nicodemus | 29th October 2010 - 12:42 PM Post #12 |
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Clanrat
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I agree. Slaves takes charges and hold with steadfast so well, almost as if they're unbreakable (with General and BSB nearby). I sometimes place hammer units behind them, and they have enough time to move around to the flank of the enemy engaged with the slaves and charge. This works better, because now the slaves serve a real purpose instead of fleeing needlessly and then likely not rallying. |
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| Paricidas | 29th October 2010 - 03:48 PM Post #13 |
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Doomwheel Driver
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Imho having 50 slaves in combat is perhaps easier, but it will never be "better" than a simple flankcharge on an unengaged enemy. In 7th edition you had a good chance to even break the most badass unit by a flank charge. You got 3 for the ranks, 1 for the outnumering and 1 for the flank. Show me the unit of chaos warriors that can beat a static combat result of 5 with 4 atacks. Add in a lucky kill from an ordinary rat, champion or character and the chaos unit is testing on -3. Now in 8th everything has changed, but one thing has stayed the same. If you simultanously enter combat with a unit of slaves, your combat results will be totally screwed up because of the damn slaves dieing in piles to almost anything. Therefor you cant just charge a clanrat unit into the flanks and hope the static CR will do the job for you. You have to use a real hammer and hope they score enough kills to make up for the dead slaves... |
| Ceterum censeo Altdorfem esse delendam | |
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| Nicodemus | 29th October 2010 - 06:44 PM Post #14 |
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Clanrat
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Your last couple of sentences is exactly why I rarely charge into a combat involving slaves. I simply move past that combat and hope it holds for several turns (enough to keep that enemy unit engaged for most of the game). I used to be an Orcs & Goblins player so believe me when I say that Bait & Flee was a huge tactic, much better than the Hold & counter charge I explained earlier. Sadly, I think Bait & Flee is over for us in 8th ed. Now, since VPs are much harder to come by and the Skaven army excels at being difficult to get VPs from, here is where I believe our strength lies. So what if we cannot kill the enemy with bait & flee and flank charges, now I dare opponents to bring their best and see how many units they can completely destroy for the VPs in 6 turns. 8th edition favors the horde army (I don't mean the horde formation), and I've learned that and adjusted my list appropriately (removed the re-direct/bait & flee units) and added more troops in my combat infantry blocks. So if bait & flee doesn't work, how does Skaven kill the enemy? That's something I am still experimenting with, because even though I am having success with my Skaven army, it's not because I am "winning". I am just outlasting everyone. |
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| Paricidas | 29th October 2010 - 07:39 PM Post #15 |
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Doomwheel Driver
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Thats exactly the question that also arises to me. I play a lot of WoC armies, and if my enemy does not do me the favor to field marauders, there is not much left in his army that I can even try to beat in a "regular" fight. We have enough units that can deal quite a punch in CC and break enemy units. But Clanrats and slaves are definitifly NOT the best men for the job. |
| Ceterum censeo Altdorfem esse delendam | |
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