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Priest on a Furnace in challenges
Topic Started: 22nd October 2010 - 07:58 PM (880 Views)
desmondkenny
Clanrat
Hello all

Now I know that the priest can't refuse a challenge - but how does the furnace act in a challenge?

In a recent game, a neutral observer tried to make the argument that as a 'mount' that the furnace itself is in the challenge and so the monks on it can't hit the unit, but are involved in the challenge like the priest.

I didn't think this was the case - anyone else have a view on this?

What really bothered me then was that the same guy said that the wrecker attack wasn't involved in the challenge - well, which is it?

(and, I would assume the case would be the same for the Bell and it's Ogre?)
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Flem
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Since the furnace is a mount it gets it's share of the challenge. The monks can make their attacks in the challenge and the wrecking attacks happen in the challenge aswell, like stomp would.

it seems reasonable that the priest won't jump down from to furnace to fight a challenge , and then crawl back up again...we still are skaven so driving over your enemy on a furnace is the better option :P

Flem,
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Kevlar
Doomwheel Driver
Flem
Oct 22 2010, 03:08 PM
Since the furnace is a mount it gets it's share of the challenge. The monks can make their attacks in the challenge and the wrecking attacks happen in the challenge aswell, like stomp would.

it seems reasonable that the priest won't jump down from to furnace to fight a challenge , and then crawl back up again...we still are skaven so driving over your enemy on a furnace is the better option :P

Flem,

Yeah I would feel bad about smacking someone with the wrecker in a challenge, but now that they get to stomp me, tough luck!
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Chitterfitz
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Can't stomp the Furnace its to big i thought? Only can stomp Infantry Right?
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Flem
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A blood curling cough a day, keeps the assassins away

Chitterfitz
Oct 22 2010, 08:35 PM
Can't stomp the Furnace its to big i thought? Only can stomp Infantry Right?

infrantry, warbeasts and swarms.
I just used the stomp as a comparison as it also is a always strike last attack.

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The Screaming Rat


don't forget you also get the d6 fog attacks that make them take d6 toughness test before combat starts... the high elves love that one! I have always strike first! my fog... and impact hit don't care! :) The Furnace is a moster in challenges!
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Bobofreak
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Wouldnt it only be 1 toughness test in a challenge regardless of how may hits you rolled for "Enshrouded by Fog"?

Enshrouded by Fog - In combat the Plague Furnace becomes wreathed in a deadly fog. At the start of any close combat, any unit (friend or foe) touching the Plague Furncae suffers D6 automatic hits distributed as per shooting. This includes the unit pushing the Plague Furnace but not the Plauge Priest riding it. Each model hit must pass a toughness test or suffer a single wound, with no armor save allowed.


It does not specify per hit so even if you roll 3 hits for the D6 in a challenge I think its only one toughness test . Though if you have a Plague Censor that would be a seperate toughness test as noted in the FAQ.

Also I think the wrecker gets to swing in a challenge and its how I have always played it.

"This attack happens last in ANY close combat the Plague Furnace is involved in, even after great weapons have struck."

So if the Plague Furnace is in the challenge it gets its wrecker attack.

"
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CapAmr05
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In a challenge, the person fighting the priest does not count as being a separate unit. The gas and ball attacks would still be allocated onto the unit(s) touching the furnace (/'s front).

It is because they are both attacks that are distributed as shooting onto the units touching the furnace in combat (not the models touching the furnace in combat).

((Though if for some reason the challenger were to move from the flank or rear to fight the priest maybe he would need to take the hits/tests.))

The furnace crew has no other choice than to attack the challenger though. And an interesting side note; even if the priest dies in the challenge, because his ride is still alive, the challenge continues until the challenger also kills the furnace or until the crew kills the challenger.

Sometimes it's a good tactic to call the challenge with the priest and reduce the number of viable attacks able to hit the furnace (potentially keeping unbreakable on the monks for longer).

--Cap
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SkavenDan
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Cap is right. They are shooting attacks and you can not allocate shooting attacks on anything that is not out in the open on it's own. A challenge represents 2 champions fighting for the cause they do not actually go to one side and fight it happens in the middle of the action.
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Midnight_Fox
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SkavenDan
Nov 9 2010, 07:39 PM
They are shooting attacks and you can not allocate shooting attacks on anything that is not out in the open on it's own.


Distributed as shooting does NOT equal a shooting attack.
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Yobtar
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Check pg 103 of the BRB Challenges and Mounts.

All of the characters attacks and attacks from a mount and/or crew of mount must go against the enemy character or his mount involved in the challenge. If a character is slain before all attacks are resolved then any left over attacks are lost.

The wrecker attack goes against the enemy character who would count as the unit.
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CapAmr05
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The wrecker is an indirect attack against a unit (it's passive, in that you can't specifically target different parts of a cohesive unit; i.e. I couldn't specifically "wrecker" the skinks on a stegadon, even in a challenge); additionally the character doesn't seperate out from his unit to fight in the challenge (unless his unit is in the rear or flank) so he's still a part of his unit. The distribution of wrecker and gas hits are both dispersed as shooting.

Saying the wrecker goes on the challenger (and not dispersed amongst the unit, which is the intended target based on the armybook writeup) is akin to saying that in a challenge, impact hits go against the challenger too (which they don't).

You may have some leverage for saying that the wrecker would go on a character from a flank/rear engaged unit, but a front to front fight; wrecker and gas would still be applied to the unit (per the description of the attacks listed in the army book; which overrides the functionality of mounts in the BRB).

--Cap
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Waq
Clanrat
CapAmr05
Nov 10 2010, 10:25 AM
The wrecker is an indirect attack against a unit (it's passive, in that you can't specifically target different parts of a cohesive unit; i.e. I couldn't specifically "wrecker" the skinks on a stegadon, even in a challenge); additionally the character doesn't seperate out from his unit to fight in the challenge (unless his unit is in the rear or flank) so he's still a part of his unit. The distribution of wrecker and gas hits are both dispersed as shooting.

Saying the wrecker goes on the challenger (and not dispersed amongst the unit, which is the intended target based on the armybook writeup) is akin to saying that in a challenge, impact hits go against the challenger too (which they don't).

You may have some leverage for saying that the wrecker would go on a character from a flank/rear engaged unit, but a front to front fight; wrecker and gas would still be applied to the unit (per the description of the attacks listed in the army book; which overrides the functionality of mounts in the BRB).

--Cap

I mostly agree with this, but I'm not sure the rules in our Skaven army book conflict with the mounts in challenge rules in the BRB.

The furnace attacks are distributed as shooting against a unit in base contact (and forward arc for wrecker).

A character on his own to the front qualifies, but being in a challenge means he can only be attacked by priest and furnace. Distributing as per shooting puts the wrecker on him, along with a toughness test.

Character with a unit to the front qualifies, if character in challenge with priest, he can only be attacked by priest and mount. According to BRB, the mount could only attack the character.

Skaven book tells us fumes hit any unit in b2b, wrecker hits a single unit in b2b in front arc (both distribute per shooting).

Both can be true, I don't think they are mutually exclusive.

Personally, from a rules standpoint, i think you could convincingly argue the furnace gets to fully participate in the challenge, although there is wiggle room.

I would work it out with opponent before game is all, find something that works for both you.
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CapAmr05
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but I'm not sure the rules in our Skaven army book conflict with the mounts in challenge rules in the BRB.


Quote:
 
According to BRB, the mount could only attack the character.


And this is the point at which the Challenge + Mount Rules and the Skaven Army Book (Furnace 'attacks') diverge. The furnace still fully participates in the challenge, but it's passive/non targeting attacks do not go solely onto the challenger (unless it is a lone character).

If a character from a unit in the front arc is in the challenge with the Furnace; the rules for both the gas and the wrecker explicitly say that the hists/tests are applied to the unit; note that does not say model, but unit. Since the character is still a part of the unit these passive/auto attacks would be aplied as shooting onto the unit. The character would not suffer the wrecker or the tests.

He would still be subject to being attacked by the Priest and Crew, but the gas tests and wrecker could not be 'targetted' onto him alone (since he's still a part of the unit).

It's the exact same situation as the ocurrance when a character (and his unit) are in base contact with the furnace for a non-challenged combat. You wouldn't apply all the impact hits/ gas tests/ wrecker hits to him just because he was in contact (because he's still a part of a unit); you would follow the rules for applying the impacts, tests and the wrecker hits to the unit as normal (as shooting).

Attacks referred to under the challenge heading are for directable attacks (priest and crew). The impacts, wrecker and gas hits do not allow targetting on anything other than units, when a character is a part of a unit, a challenge does not remove that status of being "in the unit".

--Cap
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Waq
Clanrat
I understand your case, and use mostly the same points you do, I just come to a different conclusion is all.

No worries.
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