Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Add Reply
Are skaven that strong?; Why can't I see it?
Topic Started: 19th October 2010 - 08:59 PM (2,868 Views)
catandy
Clanrat
Well, I like 8th and I liked 7th.

8th is much less tactical than 7th. No point denying it.

Sure there are new rules - its still less tactical. Free reform and fleeing through your own units save most noobs (and vets ^_^ ) from their minor mistakes. And anyone claiming that those 50 strong blocks makes a more tactical game can't really be serious.

And don't deny that we see more of those blocks of 50 being pushed forward to great enjoyment for eager dicerollers.

And to all the wiz-kids that claim template based shooting hasn't become easier, and it really doesn't make that big of a difference......

Yeah we could all guess pretty accurate - but anyone claiming they could guess the exact spot where the maximum number of models would be hit - everytime - well I'll plain out call you liers - there it is. Yes we could all hit the block, but hitting 21 or hitting 5 models everytime really does make a difference.

I personally feel happier about the game though.

No longer do I waste many hours on arguments about that 0,1 inch and the angle of redirecting - it really doesn't matter that much anymore. I failed my charge - so what?

It really is a more beer and chips oriented game. I like beer, I like chips - whats not to like :D

And in regards to what this post was originally about.

Yes skaven are that strong.

Why?
Skaven simply are a very versatile army and our armybook is still full of cheese.

We have the stormbanner vs gunlines, we have strong magic and we have the biggest bag of nasty stuff - doomrocket, deathglobes, Brass Orb etc.

Add the Doomwheel and A-Bomb and we can pretty much field an army to face anything.

Slaves at 2 points a piece is a steal. We can field more wounds than the enemy can ever hope to kill - now with steadfast :bow:

Warlords on litter or bonebreaker - cheap and very strong generals.

Grey Seer, cheap lvl 4 and very usefull lores.

Gutter runners - bye bye enemy gunline :ph43r:

A-Bomb - they shoot at him more nowadays :sick: But there are ways around that and when people shoot at the A-bomb - its because they know they have to.

Skaven are that strong - maybe not the strongest - but there is no army out there that makes us heavy underdogs - not untill everybody else gets new armybooks that is ;)




As the Old Greyseer was lying on his deathbed he passed on a few words of wisdom to his son:

- War is not about winning son, its about your opponents losing more than you do.

- But dad, if your opponents lose more than you do, you still win the battle, so its all the same, isn't it?

- You are so young my son.....worthy opponents are on your side of the battlefield.....
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rakashani
Warlord
catandy
Oct 27 2010, 02:37 PM
8th is much less tactical than 7th. No point denying it.

This statement is a precursor to people not using Skaven to the best of their abilities. It's not the same tactics as 7th edition but if you stop and think about it you can still redirect charges and pin units, even with reforms allowed.

I posted the list elsewhere, but for those saying that this edition is not tactical, I challenge you to take the following list, tweak it a bit if you want and see if you can win with it. It'll force you to figure out how baiting and redirecting work now and may force you to rethink that quote above.

Grey Seer

Engineer, lvl 2, Condenser, Doom Rocket
8x Engineer
Chieftain BSB, Stormbanner

Abom
Abom
WLC

3x 7 Gutter Runner, Slings, Poison

2x 30 Clanrats, FC, WFT
6x 30 Slaves
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Kevlar
Doomwheel Driver
ForeverRat
Oct 21 2010, 03:55 AM
Thanks to everyone for their enthusiastic replies. I really appreciate it.

It would probably help to give you some background. I am a long time skaven player. I started way back when Ikit Claw could choose from every magic lore and everyone could have riderless manticores! Remember 'flying high' anyone?

I was primarily a horde player. In 6th ed, skaven became a real shooty force, the age of the jezz and ratling gun armies.

I was always really competitive with my army.

Now, I feel the army is falling somewhere in between and I can't really get a handle on it. I do think it is primarily the fault of the new rules, which I am currently not a fan of.

Shooting is so easy now that I don't really see the value in weapons teams for example that just get picked out and killed pretty early in the game. Similarly, jezzails have been weakened by the ease in which they can be shot at and/or panicked off the battlefield.

I really enjoyed using plague censer bearers, but again these have been weakened by the new rules.

With regards to magic, I find it slightly annoying that the best spells are divided between two lores which was never previously the case.

I guess my current army would be a bell riding seer in a unit of stormvermin, several units of slaves, couple of units of poison sling gutter runners, and cannon, and Abomination. The tactic as others have said, is to feed the enemy fodder while you shoot/magic them and try and get flank charges where you can. I just find it a bit underwhelming, and one dimensional, and I guess I am disappointed that some of the interesting troops available to the skaven are not very effective in 8th ed.

I have to disagree with most of your post. Sorry but if anything 8th edition made a lot more units viable than there were in 7th.

Horde formation stormvermin are viable. In 7th? Stormvermin were worthless. You might see 10 fielded once in a while for the magic banner.

Slaves, formerly only used for baiting. Now they can actually pack a punch in combat. There are actual reasons to put characters in there now.

Rat ogres went from worthless to outstanding. Fighting in two ranks plus stomps really upgraded their power where before they were just unarmored arrow magnets. Granted they still are unarmored arrow magnets, but at least now they pack a punch.

Censer bearers aren't any weaker than they were last edition. Its just that with step up some of the stuff they fight against gets to hit back. So don't fight large infantry units to the front. Go for the flanks or take on cavalry or other units without ranks. Stick them in a tower where they are outstanding.

Weapon teams aren't that easy to shoot. They get hard cover from their parent unit plus heavy armor and a 4+ ward save. Combine that with the storm banner and they are by no means soft. Plus if the enemy is wasting shots on weapon teams then your hell pit, doomwheel, bell, and furnace are going to rip him a new one.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
catandy
Clanrat
Rakashani
Oct 29 2010, 07:49 PM
catandy
Oct 27 2010, 02:37 PM
8th is much less tactical than 7th. No point denying it.

This statement is a precursor to people not using Skaven to the best of their abilities. It's not the same tactics as 7th edition but if you stop and think about it you can still redirect charges and pin units, even with reforms allowed.

I posted the list elsewhere, but for those saying that this edition is not tactical, I challenge you to take the following list, tweak it a bit if you want and see if you can win with it. It'll force you to figure out how baiting and redirecting work now and may force you to rethink that quote above.

Grey Seer

Engineer, lvl 2, Condenser, Doom Rocket
8x Engineer
Chieftain BSB, Stormbanner

Abom
Abom
WLC

3x 7 Gutter Runner, Slings, Poison

2x 30 Clanrats, FC, WFT
6x 30 Slaves

Doesn't the fact that you have to make up an army noone would ever field pretty much make my point?

Its not that 8th isn't a tactical game at all - its just less so than 7th was.

Yes you can make the game more tactical if you choose to go to the extremes. But a basic game in 8th is more dependent on the roll of the dice, than tactics - very much more so than in 7th.

Leadership is less important (steadfast and BSB) Basicly point big unit somewhere and it will hold as long as its bigger. Getting flanked - who cares as long as you don't lose ranks. Thats a lot of tactical decisions that you have to worry much less about.

Getting the charge or not getting the charge doesn't really make a difference anymore - its all predecided by iniative. No need for any tactical decisions wether to risk charging or not.

As I said, I like both games.

Are the armybooks more balanced in 8th - certainly. Are the rules simpler - very much so.

But can you honestly come up with valid arguments that goes against 8th being less tactical? And no more makebelieve armies and extremities please.
As the Old Greyseer was lying on his deathbed he passed on a few words of wisdom to his son:

- War is not about winning son, its about your opponents losing more than you do.

- But dad, if your opponents lose more than you do, you still win the battle, so its all the same, isn't it?

- You are so young my son.....worthy opponents are on your side of the battlefield.....
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Kevlar
Doomwheel Driver
catandy
Oct 29 2010, 04:05 PM
Its not that 8th isn't a tactical game at all - its just less so than 7th was.

Yes you can make the game more tactical if you choose to go to the extremes. But a basic game in 8th is more dependent on the roll of the dice, than tactics - very much more so than in 7th.

But can you honestly come up with valid arguments that goes against 8th being less tactical? And no more makebelieve armies and extremities please.

The whole point of 8th was that it toned down things like death stars and extreme character heavy cavalry units. In that respect yes it did make the game much more tactical. Instead of one disgustingly heavy hitting unit of doom that runs right through your whole army the game is now about positioning and combined charges.

You need a big block of usually inexpensive troops to take away enemy steadfast, combined with a unit that can generate some close combat resolution. I usually team up my hell pit, doomwheel, rat ogres, and plage monks each with a large unit of 50 slaves.

A combined charge is harder to pull off than my 7th edition tactic of sticking my slaves in front of my deadly units, baiting and fleeing, then counter charging. That was down right simple.

Yes, I feel that the flexibility in 8th of not being locked into only a couple of builds because only a few units are viable makes the game more tactically challenging than 7th. 7th edition was nothing but point and click your deadly unit for the most part. Now your deadly unit is most likely going to be tar pitted and taken out of the game if you aren't more careful with it.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Bobofreak
Member Avatar
The Big Cheese!!
Quote:
 
Doesn't the fact that you have to make up an army noone would ever field pretty much make my point?


I think thats part of the point Rakashani was trying to make. What you call a list "no one" would ever take I say is a very viable list.

You pop the StormBanner to limit a heavy ranged army early for as long as you can if needed. Hopefully by the time it pops some of your gutter runners are in ther backfield taking care of ranged and warmachine units

It has 2 Abombs that in itself almost makes it a viable army (Not really but we all know they are so awsome)
It has a Grey Seer (4+ ward, Powerscroll) on a corner in a Clanrat bunker dropping the dreaded on the deathstar unit if no deathstar the best viable target
Engineer Doom rocket though I would put it on a naked engineer and try to Skittle him to the flank of the enemy line
Tons of slave units to tarpit while your Clan rats, Abombs and gutter runners are slamming flanks
Tons of infiltrating poison slingshots great for gunlines, warmachines
Tons of Engineers to either stick in slave units so that with SIN they are LD 8 away from the general

Run some engineers out in front of your units, If your opponent magics or shoots them, GREAT they are shooting or magiking a 15 point model. If they charge them EVEN BETTER choose a response of stand and make sure they are angled to where you want to draw the enemy off too because don't forget units align to what they charge so for 15 points you should have exposed a flank and even if they kill him and overun you are controlling where they are going if they stand you should have a flank charge ready.

WLC for taking out big stuff if its there if not shooting characters in units hoping for a failed look out sir and pile of casulties.
It has big enough bunkers for the grey seer and BSB.

It has very few easy high priority targets and everything else is not very good points viable targets.
I think if played right this is a very very viable list. Would I make some changes sure but It hink it is very playable.

I really can't say 8th is less tactical then 7th I think 8th is much more nuanced because the play is so much more even now due to quite a few core rules changes (Step up, Steadfast) I do think magic is oversimplified in most of the power builds, (IE One of the big 6 and Powerscroll)

I think as time goes on those newbies that you think can hold there own because its a simplier game are going to start losing as much as they ever did to the better players as they take advantage of the different tactics available in 8th
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Nailtail


The real nasty tactic with multi-engineers: run three out in front of the big nasty enemy unit. They charge: flee one, he redirects into next, flee again, then the next one... well, he can't charge/contact, so stops an inch away. Boo hiss boo!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rakashani
Warlord
More specifically, the point that I was making is that the tactics are *different*. What the list I posted does is still very tactical and the fact that most players are not bothering with those tactics does not mean that they are not there, simply that they aren't playing tactically.

15 point Engineers are fabulous as redirectors. 30-man Slave units are fabulous for swinging CR by 7-10 points (3 ranks of slaves plus 3 ranks denied for the enemy plus flank or rear plus charging). Using them properly it's damn near impossible for an opponent to avoid taking a unit of Slaves in the flank or rear (normally a combined charge if you know what you're doing). They can't reform as long as they're fighting to two sides. They can't avoid being shot at unless they leave the Engineer alive.

The point was that if you try brute-forcing with this list you get beat like a drum but if you bother learning the tactics (which you can then employ with a more traditional list to good effect) you'll figure out that there *are* tactics on the table, even in 8th edition.

Stop playing 7th Edition. This is not 7th Edition. The tactics you liked from 7th Edition are *not* here. I won't argue that. Get over it and move on and figure out what *is* here.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
catandy
Clanrat
Rakashani
Nov 1 2010, 06:18 PM
Stop playing 7th Edition.  This is not 7th Edition.  The tactics you liked from 7th Edition are *not* here.  I won't argue that.  Get over it and move on and figure out what *is* here.

Lol :D I'm playing 8th and I like it so far:) I can even play it with my kids ;)
As I said I like 7th, and I like 8th. They are different games though and I haven't decided which I like more. But I haven't heard anyone claim that 8th is the more tactical of the 2. Are any of you actually staking that claim?

In 8th you have to worry less about morale (steadfast and BSB), less about angles (reform) and even less about charge distances (initiative decides). Whooo you get +1 CR for charging - yay - doesn't really matter as combat is rarely decided by CR.

Yes the game is still tactical but the basics are just less complex....yes complex maybe thats the word we are looking for.

Its a nice and simpler game. Lets call the tactics *different* - I'll still stick my nose out there and say its less complex and hence less tactical.

By the way you can still abuse the rules if you feel you have to: field 8 engineers, they "are fabulous as redirectors...". Thats really what engineers are meant for - truly in the spirit of the game;)



As the Old Greyseer was lying on his deathbed he passed on a few words of wisdom to his son:

- War is not about winning son, its about your opponents losing more than you do.

- But dad, if your opponents lose more than you do, you still win the battle, so its all the same, isn't it?

- You are so young my son.....worthy opponents are on your side of the battlefield.....
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Scurrilous
Warlord
The skaven are, I'm convinced, strong. I just can't use them right yet.
Tournemant results to date:
vs Vampire Counts: 1 victory
vs Dwarves: 1 victory
vs Daemons: 1 Draw
vs Brettonians: 1 draw, 1 loss
vs Skaven: 1 victory
vs Lizardmen: 1 victory
vs Dark Elves: 1 loss
vs High Elves: 1 loss
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
tbone
Member Avatar
Grey Seer
I've heard some complaints about the new morale of 8th edition i.e. units not running away as much as 7th. While had very little experience with 7th i will say that it was waaayyyyy too easy to make units rout. So much combat was decided by static combat resolution modifiers alone. Which, in my opinion, isn't very fun at all. When two units totaling 50 models enter combat, 2 die, the whole rest of the unit runs, and then they are promptly overrun. I mean this is supposed to be WAR, people will be killed and many 'should' die, not, run a the first sight of a fallen comrade.

All in all, 8th seems much better, except for LOS. I could see ubergamers rebasing all their ranged units. UGH
Tbone's Nasty Rats
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rakashani
Warlord
catandy
Nov 1 2010, 05:16 PM
In 8th you have to worry less about morale (steadfast and BSB), less about angles (reform) and even less about charge distances (initiative decides). Whooo you get +1 CR for charging - yay - doesn't really matter as combat is rarely decided by CR.

...

Its a nice and simpler game. Lets call the tactics *different* - I'll still stick my nose out there and say its less complex and hence less tactical.

By the way you can still abuse the rules if you feel you have to: field 8 engineers, they "are fabulous as redirectors...". Thats really what engineers are meant for - truly in the spirit of the game;)

Steadfast and BSB don't really change anything about tactics (you weren't doing anything in 7th to change those numbers unless you were baiting a unit out of range of the general, which you can still do).

Angles matter because the reform costs you something. You don't overrun (2d6") or you don't march or you take a -1 to your shooting. You cannot reform and charge. So your angle still matters, it just doesn't penalize you as much as it used to.

Charge distances were never tactical. Being able to eyeball 8.5" may be a skill, but it is not tactics.

Did it ever matter that you combined charges under 7th? Rarely. Does it matter in 8th? Absolutely since it determines whether or not the opponent can reform.

Complexity does not equate to tactics. Go is probably the simplest game ever devised and I don't expect you to try telling me that it is not tactical. I'm not going to claim that GW has come up with a work of genius, but if you play against someone who has bothered to think about the rules and what works in 8th edition you'll find that tactics and foresight still matter.

Everything I ever see touted as tactics from 7th Edition boils down to non-tactical skills (range judgement) or something that is still in the game with greater or lesser consequences.

As for abusing the rules, I don't think I ever played against a VC list with Wraiths or 2 units of Blood Knights. I don't think I ever saw someone clip with a unit that had 8 static CR so that even if they lost 2 casualties they won by 6... The fact that I chose a list that abuses rules to point out to you that the rules still applied or that they might matter and tactics might still exist does not mean that that is the only way to apply them, simply that it was a list that highlighted all the tactics that you say no longer exist.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
catandy
Clanrat
Quote:
 
Steadfast and BSB don't really change anything about tactics
So stubborn rerollable leadership doesn't change anything? You no longer have to considder wether a unit that you are putting in harms way can hold up to a charge. Now you just point 50 slaves at anything and they will hold. Maybe you didn't have tactical considderations about things like that before and hence the game is as tactical when you play it today?

Quote:
 
Did it ever matter that you combined charges under 7th?  Rarely.  Does it matter in 8th?  Absolutely since it determines whether or not the opponent can reform.


You never flanked in 7th? Combined charges did make a difference - it still does. Its just that charging doesn't matter anymore. Positioning yourself to gain or avoid a charge really mattered. Now you just point block at opponents block. That doesn't make it less tactical?

Quote:
 
So your angle still matters, it just doesn't penalize you as much as it used to.

So we agree that angles matters less.

Quote:
 
Go is probably the simplest game ever devised and I don't expect you to try telling me that it is not tactical.


Tic-Tac-Toe is a tactical game, so is Yatzy, Four-on-a-row and Chess. I would still claim some of these games are more tactical than others :D




As the Old Greyseer was lying on his deathbed he passed on a few words of wisdom to his son:

- War is not about winning son, its about your opponents losing more than you do.

- But dad, if your opponents lose more than you do, you still win the battle, so its all the same, isn't it?

- You are so young my son.....worthy opponents are on your side of the battlefield.....
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
mellr0
Member Avatar
Why U do dis?!
Quote:
 
So stubborn rerollable leadership doesn't change anything? You no longer have to considder wether a unit that you are putting in harms way can hold up to a charge. Now you just point 50 slaves at anything and they will hold


Have you actually played a game yet, or is this theorycraft? because i will tell you, that is rubbish. 50 slaves will hold. for a turn, until the superior unit shreds them to nothing. Multiple charges destroys this mega re rollable leadership unit as you claim. So does killing the BSB. try thinking tactics by sacrificing units to take out weaker targets (i.e. sending a sacrifical unit at a BSB).

Quote:
 
Its just that charging doesn't matter anymore. Positioning yourself to gain or avoid a charge really mattered. Now you just point block at opponents block. That doesn't make it less tactical?


Sorry, you're confusing "totally not important" with, "less important than it used to be", because a charge was the only thing that mattered. Low initiative models, crap infantry, single monsters, weak fliers, skirmishers and dead animals.
They all went first if they charged, so charging was all. On the odd occasion you were in cover that made initiative actually matter, it was easy to draw an enemy out because you gained no advantage by hiding in that cover so you could be flanked, due to awkward movement rule, due to those angle rules you so vehemently cling to.

I doubt anyone who believed previous editions were some sort of tactical genious based games will ever agree that 8th is every bit as tactical. Thats because they spent the past 10 years having 20 minute movement phases, loosing a unit to panic on the first turn and sitting on hills so they are able to hit everything, even that unit hiding behind the massive forest or behind the building.
I am looking to get a hold of the following items, as many as possible:
The new style skulls from numerous kits (less heroic scale skulls)
Any bits of skeletons (both older skeletons and new vc skeletons)
Toppers from stormvermin banners (grey seer type skulls)

I have lots of fantasy and 40k bits to trade, including:
Imperial guard special and heavy weapons
Daemonette bits
Bits from land raiders, and chaos space marines
clanrat arm weapons
hellpit arms
Ghoul and zombie bodyparts
older metal Chaos marines

Message me if you can help.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Pau
Member Avatar
Clanrat
Rakashani
Nov 1 2010, 06:18 PM


Stop playing 7th Edition.  This is not 7th Edition.  The tactics you liked from 7th Edition are *not* here.  I won't argue that.  Get over it and move on and figure out what *is* here.

Yeap Remember that 8th has been out less than 1 year there allot of people out there with the 7th attitude in mind "This unit/character sucks in 7th is was sooo uver cooler" "Nah it was WAY harder in 7th" "8th is for noobes 7th was way more TIER" and on and on and on.

You have to stop that, come up with NEW tactics the tactics are there you just have to Find them don't go looking for them in 7th or 6th or 5th. It's not the same game :P
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Fantasy Battles Rules Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply