Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Add Reply
Are skaven that strong?; Why can't I see it?
Topic Started: 19th October 2010 - 08:59 PM (2,869 Views)
mellr0
Member Avatar
Why U do dis?!
We have a player exactly like you in our local, problems adjusting to 8th, complaining skaven dont play as fun etc etc.

No offense, but why is it you guys always go to riderless manticores and flying high as examples of a previous, fun edition?

This is a new edition. It has new rules, new mechanics, new ways of playing. It isnt 7th ed with slightly different wording. Entire rules sections have changed. I for one think its a much stronger ruleset than the previous 2 by a long shot.

Quote:
 
I just find it a bit underwhelming, and one dimensional, and I guess I am disappointed that some of the interesting troops available to the skaven are not very effective in 8th ed.


Which interesting troops would these be? effectiveness is coloured by situation. You cant use rat ogres to hold a line. You cant use clanrats to break an overly defensive unit by themselves.
None of the previous strategy is lost. Last skaven armybook, you did that with everything, charge, get them in combat, fire at them, win. In this edition, you have to get them to charge something that you can fire at them with in close combat, like slaves, which really lack CC power.

I would advise posting up what troops you want to get on the board, and then we can give you advice as to what has worked in this edition with us.
I am looking to get a hold of the following items, as many as possible:
The new style skulls from numerous kits (less heroic scale skulls)
Any bits of skeletons (both older skeletons and new vc skeletons)
Toppers from stormvermin banners (grey seer type skulls)

I have lots of fantasy and 40k bits to trade, including:
Imperial guard special and heavy weapons
Daemonette bits
Bits from land raiders, and chaos space marines
clanrat arm weapons
hellpit arms
Ghoul and zombie bodyparts
older metal Chaos marines

Message me if you can help.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ForeverRat
Clanrat
I dont think I actually said that riderless manticores and flying high rules made the game fun. In fact, I think it was stupid and I actually gave up playing soon after that. When the rules were dramatically changed for 6th ed, I started playing again.

I think the strongest ruleset the game has had was the 7th ed rules. The problem with 7th ed is that the army books were unabalanced.

For what it's worth I think the 8th ed is a dumbed down, simpler version of the game. I think shooting is too easy and war machines which are the most powerful units in the game have become to easy to hit with. Magic is too powerful and good generalship is not really rewarded. You can play brilliantly and then your opponent gets off one of the uber spells with irresistible force and then you have lost. My opinion has nothing to do with the skaven army which I am sure I will get my head around.

I used to enjoy charge diverting and outmanoevring opponents. Now you can swift reform, combat reform to get yourself out of trouble, and even if you get flanked, you can move your strongest character over to that flank to fight. They are encouraging you to charge big units across the battlefield and have a dice fest in the middle of the pitch. It is more of a kiddies game and mature gamers like me are probably not so into that way of playing.

Anyway, that's my rant about 8th over and done with. I love the skaven and so I will have to try and make them work in 8th ed or just get into the hobby side which I am getting into more and more now the gaming side is not so good.

As for units that I think have been weakened or not really relevant:

weapons teams
jezzails
plague censer bearers
night runners
rat swarms

i dont think any of these are really worth taking for various reasons.....

Just my thoughts....

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
mellr0
Member Avatar
Why U do dis?!
Sorry, but i totally disagree. Maybe at first, 7 encouraged charge diverting, setting up charges and fleeing, but people got wise very quickly. Warmachines are no more powerful, due to the fact that i have never seen someone make a bad guess with a warmachine in last edition. The worse guess i saw someone make was a stonethrower, guessing onto the back rank of a squad. It then scattered 2 forwards, so hit them anyway.
Guessing like that isnt a skill, especially when the final hit has a 1 in 3 chance of hitting where you want it to be.

An uber spell getting irresistible force only helps against a deathstar unit, and it still is going to hurt a wizard and any unit they have.
Like, say, someone who is taking lots of characters in one squad, so they can chop through and negate striking back against them, as per 7th. Only warriors of chaos now take deathstar units most effectively, and thats because the chaos warriors have stats that means you loose 1 in 3 troops on an average roll.
To be honest, they made the game more realistic, something which I am increadibly happy for.


Back to the units.
i am not surprised about rat swarms. I take quite a few, due to always being magic heavy and both death frenzy and poisoning them. Thats the only time when i find them effective, that and when i want to kill a war machine so i zoom them forwards.

Plague censor bearers are very effective. They die on 6's in CC at the start of the turn. not a massive problem, since the enemy do the same thing but normally on a lower number. They get 3 attacks that reroll on the first turn of combat, as well as a chance of killing off the first rank of infantry in close combat with them. I basically soften up a unit with them, or go after monsters. They do, however, require a unit of plague monks.

I always take a squad of jezzails. 10, because i am that crazy, and i am playing skyre. I am yet to think of an army that hasnt feared the jezzails, even if they havent had a good target. Monsters die to them, as do chariots, knights, lone characters and slow moving, ranked up units who rely on having their full rank bonus in cc. You can outplink any other shooty unit with jezzails due to the fact they have a save, and a longer range on average.

Same goes with a weapon team. They cant move and shoot, but unless you are going against something with hundreds of shooting troops with amazing ballistic skill, they are -1 to hit, and get a 4+ ward, normally with an armour save as well. The old favourite of last edition, the ratling gun, has been nerfed off my field, but i find the warpfire thrower to be highly effective, always causing at least 4 casualties.

I havent used night runners that much, just minimum sized squad with their bare bones items for flank charges. I wouldnt feel confident recommending them any more than that due to that reason.
I am looking to get a hold of the following items, as many as possible:
The new style skulls from numerous kits (less heroic scale skulls)
Any bits of skeletons (both older skeletons and new vc skeletons)
Toppers from stormvermin banners (grey seer type skulls)

I have lots of fantasy and 40k bits to trade, including:
Imperial guard special and heavy weapons
Daemonette bits
Bits from land raiders, and chaos space marines
clanrat arm weapons
hellpit arms
Ghoul and zombie bodyparts
older metal Chaos marines

Message me if you can help.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Coeur



Unbalanced uber magic eh, those spells which require a stat test or you die with no armour saves allowed? Yeah I know those, kind of like hmm..... Plague!?

Really, if other lores didnt have spells like those, then people would complain about skaven lol. It's not really fair of us to complain when we have that, and also the 13th, which ignores ward saves, and MR.......
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Nevamore
Member Avatar
Stormvermin
Dont try and play Skaven as you would have in the last edition, there are other viable ways.

Certain units you say are now useless, might have other uses elsewhere.

Weapon teams getting shot up? Use mortars and hide them behind your units (or a storm banner would be the obvious answer to shooting).

PCBs not packing the punch they once did? They're better than in the last army book (by +1 attack), and in 8th edition they've taken a more flanking/support role than before when they could challenge fully ranked units on their own (which just ain't cricket).

I never use jezzails cos I try and keep Skryre stuff to a minimum (4k points and only a doomwheel, a WLC and a couple of weapon teams). They don't take a rocket scientist to use however: take lots on none a all; keep em far back; true line of sight means easier to shoot monsters/cavalry; don't expect them to wipe units out every turn. They tend to work well with other guns in the army to ensure you drop your target in 1/2 turns.

Rat swarms arn't so great, but the alternative: giant rats... 2 points less than a swarm for 5 (and a PM), and they're great for harrassing, war machine hunting, setting off fanatics, and seeing your opponents deployment first :D

Night runners suck, but I'm sure in big games it'd be fun to have a unit of 50 pop up in their deployment zone.

Don't think of 8th edition as a "dumbed down" version of 7th, but rather an entirely different game. If you play it like 7th, then your not going to have a good time. Approach it as more of a "beer and chips" style game, with which the aim is to have fun rather than crush the enemy beneath your boot (which you can still do).
I think you'll really warm to 8th if you utilise all it has to offer... the new terrain rules are great and can really turn the tide of battles if used cleverly (things like the weirding well, haunted mansion and brew house are great fun). It adds another dimension rather than "hmm I won't charge them because they'll beat me", it can be "the weaker unit is behind a river so I'll lose my rank bonus to fight them, while the stronger unit is by a bane stone, so I get +1 to wound them!".
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ForeverRat
Clanrat
Don't get me wrong, I am not in the depths of misery about 8th. I just think as one of the posters said, its a 'beer and chips' game. It is simpler, instantly satisfying but rather forgettable. If you like picking up loads of dice and seeing who gets the best score, then this is the game for you.


I preferred the previous edition which, in my opinion, involved a bit more thought, planning and strategy. The best general usually won, army book imbalances permitting!

I will certainly give 8th my best shot, and I am sure people are defending it because it is Warhammer and they have a degree of brand loyalty. If this was a completely new game though, I wonder how many people would support it so strongly.

I agree that plague and dreaded 13th are overpowered. Even more so because you can choose the dreaded 13th and also plague is so much more powerful with the new rules on casting. Previously, it was quite difficult to cast, now it is really quite easy.

Sorry mellr0, you aren't going to convince me that the game is better for Dwellers or Purple Sun. Put those spells with items like the power scroll and what do you get? War machines are much easier to use for two reasons. Firstly, allowing people to measure not guess makes it easier. Whatever you say. It means that hitting moving units that were at a diagonal is just as easy as hitting static units. The new line of sight rules means it is easier to see things as well so war machines are much more damaging. It is very difficult to deny this. Wait till you see the power of dwarf and empire gunlines. I saw an empire army with two mortar destroy an enemy almost to a man in three turns.

I guess it depends what sort of game you want. Do you want a game where good tactics and strategy are rewarded and are the best way to win, or do you want a game where hitting one dice roll blows away your opponent?

There are plenty of examples I could give where this happens, I have seen it several times at my club, and to me it is plain silly. So much so that tournaments are bringing in heavy comp for magic and limits on numbers of war machines to prevent it.

Anyway, we have 8th, we have to live with it, or stop playing. I will keep going for the moment as I said, and see what happens. But let's call a spade a spade. It is a simpler, less tactical, more dumbed down game. There is no point in arguing about it.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
mellr0
Member Avatar
Why U do dis?!
Quote:
 
I will certainly give 8th my best shot, and I am sure people are defending it because it is Warhammer and they have a degree of brand loyalty. If this was a completely new game though, I wonder how many people would support it so strongly.


Probably the same number of people who are defending 7th because they are outright disgusted by the new rules.

Quote:
 
Wait till you see the power of dwarf and empire gunlines. I saw an empire army with two mortar destroy an enemy almost to a man in three turns.


Me too. It was in 7th ed. I'll give you a hint. Watch how far units around and behind the unit you want to fire moved.
I have never had a problem with guessing. Not on my first or 70th game. I've had millions of misfires, explosions or plain sailing straight over the top. I have yet to guess more than 3 inches away from my intended target. Nor has any of the 13 year olds that I have introduced to the game, or the 35 year old guys who have been playing since they were 11.

I used to prefer warmachine to 7th edition infinately, due to the fact that tactics were gone out of the window. It used to be "the fastest unit that has the most attacks wins". Pure and simple.
The quickest way they overcame that? the step up rule. Now, 5 guys with a banner and alot of attacks no longer destroys 30 guys at the front if they get the charge.
Defensive strategy used to be "run away, so my guys can charge" or "stand behind large obstacles".

If tournaments are putting comp limits on and war machine limits, then thats fine. Because in 7th edition, they had to limit monsters, war machines, magic users, maximum costs of characters, magic items, magic item combinations and repeated choices within each army slot. Dont pretend like some new, major unbalance has been introduced due to increased magic that is quite random.

There always have been units that run across the board, slaughter hundreds of things. Bret knights used to tear through any non stubborn, non unbreakable unit, due to speed. It wasnt tactical to aim them at an enemy that has a chance of breaking, and declare a charge. Dont try to pretend like it was.
I am looking to get a hold of the following items, as many as possible:
The new style skulls from numerous kits (less heroic scale skulls)
Any bits of skeletons (both older skeletons and new vc skeletons)
Toppers from stormvermin banners (grey seer type skulls)

I have lots of fantasy and 40k bits to trade, including:
Imperial guard special and heavy weapons
Daemonette bits
Bits from land raiders, and chaos space marines
clanrat arm weapons
hellpit arms
Ghoul and zombie bodyparts
older metal Chaos marines

Message me if you can help.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
drrat
Member Avatar
Grey Seer
Well you are a genius at shooting, but you are not going to convince me that you are more accurate than someone who can see everything with true line of sight and gets to place the template where they like!

Incidentally, those other imbalances are failures in army book design, not ruleset. However you are right that 7th had its problems, but it had tactical complexity and depth.

Pushing blocks of 50 men into each other then rolling 3 handfuls of dice to see who wins the battle, is not my idea of fun. But each to their own. If you enjoy that then good luck to you. One great thing about 8th is that it seems to have regenerated my interest in the hobby. I love the new skaven models, and doing lots of converting and painting.

On a cheeky personal note, why am i not surprised that you used an army with lots of war machines... :)
warpstone, more warpstone, yes-yes, more warpstone....
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
mellr0
Member Avatar
Why U do dis?!
Sorry, but true line of sight actually makes some things unhittable as opposed to the last edition where a model on a hill can see "everything" and all models get to fire.
As long as you are in a thick, well modelled forest, you cant get shot at. Simple as.

Quote:
 
Pushing blocks of 50 men into each other then rolling 3 handfuls of dice to see who wins the battle, is not my idea of fun.


Mine neither. If thats how your 8th ed games play, I am very sorry for you, but at my club, we still manage to outflank, flee, feint and draw people to where we want them, far more than in 7th edition, since I prefer to get my enemy in closer to guarantee charges.
Its even better now for skaven, since even ld7 from the general for fleeing is worth it with a BSB reroll. There are hundreds of other rules now that come into play: Skirmishers being steadfast while in a forest, fleeing through your own troops (since it used to totally kill you), forcing units through a forest, taking up defense in a building against mounted troops... far more than i can put down that we have found.

I have always used warmachines, in 6, 7th and 8th. I may not have been 100% accurate compared to true line of sight and pre-measure, but ill tell you something: i used to be able to shoot anything on the board because i was on a half inch tabletop hill, and that meant my jezzials were horrible in 7th, as were any other warmachine. You cant declare a shot against what you cant see, and when a forest, building etc is in the way of your line of sight, you cant shoot.
I am looking to get a hold of the following items, as many as possible:
The new style skulls from numerous kits (less heroic scale skulls)
Any bits of skeletons (both older skeletons and new vc skeletons)
Toppers from stormvermin banners (grey seer type skulls)

I have lots of fantasy and 40k bits to trade, including:
Imperial guard special and heavy weapons
Daemonette bits
Bits from land raiders, and chaos space marines
clanrat arm weapons
hellpit arms
Ghoul and zombie bodyparts
older metal Chaos marines

Message me if you can help.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
turmi110
Chieftain
Everything has been ramped up in 8th edition, supporting attacks for close combat, extra rank for shooting, and volley for archers, so for warmachines they gave them pre measure. The main gripe I have with 8th is that magic doesn't scale with points. At 1k points you get 2D6 power dice, at 3k you still get 2D6 dice. I find in small games I'll have a lvl 1 or 2 wizard, and with all the power dice I generate I just throw them all at one or two spells, often throwing 4 dice to cast a power lvl 7 spell. Other things in 8th that I grumbled about when it first came out, I'm actually starting to like. Random charging is necessary with the pre measuring, step up is necessary vs glass cannons and to move some of the destructive power away from small elite units, initiative used to be an almost pointless stat with most combats being won on the charge, where the charger almost always went first, monsters rampaged through entire armies, but now with steadfast they get held up and sometimes dragged down to their death in a prolonged combat. The list of changes goes on, and it took a while to get used to, but all in all I'm far more impressed with 8th than I ever was with 7th.

Weapon teams for me have worked brilliantly. Usually I only get to fire the warpfire thrower only once or twice a game (and still no misfires!) and most of the time, they have taken out 3/4 of an enemy infantry unit. Plaguewind mortar is very hit and miss, but it can move and shoot, so its firing every turn. The ineffectiveness of rat swarms is nothing new, I haven't seen anyone use swarms in their armies, I also don't find them very fun (compared to everything else we have) so them not being effective doesn't phase me.

I haven't been playing skaven for long, but I'm finding them very enjoyable, and also very strong, and I haven't even gotten to the really fun stuff. I run mostly core, some ogres, couple of weapon teams and a few characters. I've yet to get to the really exciting stuff like furnace, bell, wheel, cannon, abom, gutter runners, plague censors etc. I'm itching to get them all, but need to get my core set up first.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
bakfire the experimenter
graduate of the school for dangerous inventions
on the subject of enemy warmachines - yes they are more accurate for weaker players but as mentioned before an experienced warmachine user in the last edition might as well have been premeasuring.

however enemy warmachines now only have approx 3 wounds and arnt immune to poison so a unit of 6 gutter runners with poisoned slings should hopefully kill one a turn.

i have found that deployment for me has changed in 8th edition....

i have been taking advice on deployment recently and one thing i have been told really makes sense, with true line of sight you can deploy something like the abomb in a place to draw the enemy into deploying a cannon somewhere with limited use when i have the intention of the amomb moving somewhere out of LOS in my first turn - obviously this is subjective dependant on the table.
Daniel cannot possibly exist in a dimensional state.

Recent studies show that people who have attempted to comprehend Daniel have either disappeared, died spontaneously, or driven themselves into a pertinent state of insanity and/or catatonia.


<img src="http://www.heresy-online.net/daemons/adoptables/23041.gif" alt="Broken Adoptable Image" /><br><a href="http://www.heresy-online.net/daemons/levelup/23041-dark-whisper.htm" title="Level up this Daemon!">Level up Adoptable!</a>

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Coeur



7th didnt feel tactical at all to me either. Not even taking into account warmachines, the whole thing was just about getting the charge.

That was it. If you got the charge, you went first, if you went first and killed 5 people, they couldnt fight back.

Fear was ridiculous!!! As was morale in general. You might as well have taken small units everywhere, because they would be running after one poor combat phase ANYWAY.

7th ed was the version for simple people. Where an army list would be unbeatable, just by virtue of being that army list. I.e. Lizardmen with stegadons and world engines. Or the VC armies with stupid amounts of powerdice.

Now instead of always going. "He charges, i flee, i flank charge." EVERY... SINGLE... GAME.... we now have to consider deployment alot more. Infantry have much more purpose, as they would in say. A real medieval war...

Admittedly im not keen on the power scroll, but the other magic changes seem fine. Each lore has an awesome spell, negating the tired old "always choose this lore" of the previous game.

Finally, the % instead of slots is MUCH better. As cheap armies like ours really suffered from that. 2 Heroes only? So thats what.... 100pts.... 3 specials only... 3 of our specials, wont match up to 3 say... dark elf specials... but now with %, they can. By virtue of us getting to have more.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ForeverRat
Clanrat
It's interesting to hear these points of view. I think a lot of this is getting used to the new system and it is also interesting to hear peoples views of 7th which are very different from mine. There were definitely problems with it and there are definitely some good things about 8th. It's not all bad. But I do think the uber spells are unbalancing but otherwise I am prepared to take on board what people are saying and stick at it.

Thanks for all the feedback.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Waaargh
Chieftain
Around thise part of the globe (Denmark) skaven are called strong due to them having easy access to cheap units denying movement and VP to the enemy in form of slaves and giant rats, while having a strong magic and shooting. What is brilliant about skaven is nothing in the army is outstanding, the many elements add up to something greater than the sum of the parts. Skavens are able to play a game of attrition very well too. Comet of Cassandora is currently star of the show (no pun intended) when it comes to magic, and while some armies is disintegrated by it, skavens can shake it off rather easily, along with mortars, etc.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Kevlar
Doomwheel Driver
Waaargh
Oct 26 2010, 04:41 PM
Around thise part of the globe (Denmark) skaven are called strong due to them having easy access to cheap units denying movement and VP to the enemy in form of slaves and giant rats, while having a strong magic and shooting. What is brilliant about skaven is nothing in the army is outstanding, the many elements add up to something greater than the sum of the parts. Skavens are able to play a game of attrition very well too. Comet of Cassandora is currently star of the show (no pun intended) when it comes to magic, and while some armies is disintegrated by it, skavens can shake it off rather easily, along with mortars, etc.

So true, the strength of skaven is in putting more wounds on the table than even the elite armies are capable of dealing with in six or so turns.

Then you have your "scoring" units, which are excellent as well. Warp lightning cannons, hell pits, poison gutter runners, etc. Great at taking out expensive high priority enemy.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Free Forums. Reliable service with over 8 years of experience.
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Fantasy Battles Rules Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply