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Are skaven that strong?; Why can't I see it?
Topic Started: 19th October 2010 - 08:59 PM (2,867 Views)
ForeverRat
Clanrat
I have played skaven though several editions and a lot of people seem to regard them as one of the stronger armies in this new edition. But i am struggling with them.

I don't see why they are that good, I can't seem to get them to work for me. I find the magic hit and miss in that it is difficult to get the best spells because they are divided between the two lores, shooting similarly is variable. Weapons teams are too easy to pick out and destroy and jezzails have been really weakened also.

So I guess i am looking for some tips about how best to play to the strengths of the new skaven army, because clearly i am doing something wrong.
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Kevlar
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ForeverRat
Oct 19 2010, 03:59 PM
I have played skaven though several editions and a lot of people seem to regard them as one of the stronger armies in this new edition. But i am struggling with them.

I don't see why they are that good, I can't seem to get them to work for me. I find the magic hit and miss in that it is difficult to get the best spells because they are divided between the two lores, shooting similarly is variable. Weapons teams are too easy to pick out and destroy and jezzails have been really weakened also.

So I guess i am looking for some tips about how best to play to the strengths of the new skaven army, because clearly i am doing something wrong.

Skaven work best as a horde army. Smaller elite warmachine and magic armies can work, but are much less reliable than 200-300+ rats overwhelming your opponent.

Remember in warhammer even the most elite troops only get so many attacks. Does it really matter if chaos warriors are str5 toughness5 or str 10 toughness 10 when they only get 2 attacks? Not really, they hit you on 3s and wound you on 2s regardless. So you overwhelm them not with expensive troops, but with waves of crappy troops.

Feed the enemy more wounds than he can deal with and while you won't win, you won't lose either. Then you can win the victory point battle on other parts of the battlefield.

Keep your expensive war machines and elite troops like rat ogres protected until you have dealt with their bigger threats like war machines or mages with your scouts or fast troops.

Tie up enemy death stars or expensive models with waves of slaves that can't be chopped through, and even when they do eventually die they give almost no victory points.
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SkavenDan
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Now you can have as many slave units as you like and 6s always wound. Slaves are quiet a strong unit. In sufficient size they can pull down a lot of things and even if they don't manage it alone they pine the enemy while you move onto the flanks too.
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Paricidas
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Just to add something to the points of Kevlar and Dan:

One of the stongest abilities of the skaven is to let every unit and its mum run around with ld10. One of the key elements of winning my games is, to stick together wirth units that need to stick together. Ld 8-10 rerollable is a big advantage.

To keep this advanatge you must have:
very high numbers, you need to be steadfast against almost anything
very high numbers, you want to have SiN as long as possible
Not more than 12 (or 18 inches if you have a bell) distance to the general/BSB
A general who does not die in the first round of close combat (not much of a problem with the new items).

Tactics, like Kevlat already mentioned, are to tie up the expensiv hard hitters with billions of slaves (hell, mine even killed a unit of chaos knights and a unit of chaos ogres in a single game), and use your other units/spells to take out the rest of the army. When the most dangerous "soft" targets (warmachines, monsters, monsterous cavalery etc.) are gone, you can try to clean the table from the elite units with flankcharges etc...
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Hobbit
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Clanrat
Slaves are "the thing" that makes skaven so special. 2 points per body, life is cheap rule and almost unbreakable in range of general+bsb. You see deathstar? Send slaves and destroy the rest! Hydra or dragon? Send slaves and shoot! Your slaves were destroyed? Send MORE slaves!
Adding to this quite good magic, skyre machines, abbomination and storm banner (also best fluff ever!) it allows you to stand against anyone.
Of course skavens have theirs downsides. Death of general is real pain, our army is random and we miss REAL elite unit, but nobody is perfect :)
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chieftainskritchskritch
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The Freshmaker

Something that I may add to the discussion:

Dont overlook cheap Skaven characters either. I always take one Chieftain with halberd per Clanrat unit, for 2 reasons:

1. The Chieftain provides an extra pip of Leadership, making his unit Ld9 when at full ranks (allowing them to safely rove outside of the general's Ld range).

2. He can provide 3 S5 WS5 attacks at decent initiative, meaning that you may actually get a kill or two to add to your static CR.

And at 47pts a pop, he's a steal! The only downside is lack of armour, but even that can sometimes be negligable. You'd be surprised how very few opponents will attack a Hero-level character with mediocre rank and file troops, especially if they dont know the Chieftain lacks armour. ;)
You kids these days have it so easy, what with your Plague Furnaces and your Hellpit Abominations and your Bonebreaker Warlords. Back in MY day, all we had was Slaves and Clanrats!...and auto-hit Ratling Guns...and skirmishing Jezzails...and 2D6 Warp Lightning...and Lead From The Back...wait, what was my arguement again?
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bakfire the experimenter
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as to the spells i use either a lvl2 warlock and seer or a lvl2 priest and the seer to ensure i get all the spells from my chosen lore.

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Recent studies show that people who have attempted to comprehend Daniel have either disappeared, died spontaneously, or driven themselves into a pertinent state of insanity and/or catatonia.


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Coeur



It would be handy to see an example of the army you field, at least a rough outline. Not to sound superior, but there might be a weakness in it. I remember when I was first starting, I used masses of rats, and all looked fantastic, until I fought Bretonnians fielding lots of small units of knights, and realised I had no armour piercing ability!!! With him using heavens too, re-rolling 1's for armour.... lol........

But really, Skaven do seem to be a very dominant force. Every game I've played so far has generally had a few key points.

1) I outnumber the enemy. Even with my elite units... 25 Plaguemonks (FC) is only 200pts, what an utter steal! For what they do. Even without the plaguebanner, they wander into combat, murder lots, and then often have enough ranks to add a tasty static rez, and/or deny steadfast to my enemy.

2) My slaves don't flee. Well, okay, they do sometimes. But generally I can (ironically) count on them to do what they need to do. Having a flank charge too... gosh... that's usually... 0 kills (assuming worst), +3CR ranks, +3CR for 2nd units ranks. +2 for charge + flank.... no steadfast for enemy, or rank bonus... almost always an insane courage roll. Unless the enemy is supremely tough.

3) Magic... you say its hit and miss? It always seems to do what I need as well... maybe because I field a lvl 2 plague priest, AND a Seer. Ensuring that, if I want, i can have every plague spell. But even the 13th is perfect. sure, HUGE casting value. But effectively removing a unit from the game is worth it. Feel free to throw 3-4 dice at it, at the end of a magic phase. An irresistable still works, even if the casting value is only 12. Other spells work fine. Plague is hilarious, wither helps it. Cloud of corruption is nice. Scorch wrecks everything, howling warpgale... WOW..... death frenzy... There are only like three spells I dont like, and the chances of rolling them specifically is quite low. I never bother with skitterleap, as I find that every person expects it, and dispels it quite ferociously.

4) Shooting.... Well WLC are awesome sauce, and cheap. Plague catapults are okay, especially if you wither an enemy first. Jezzails... they seem fine to me. Generally they'll be needing 5+ to hit, but think about it, elves may get 4+, but they only get str3.... we get str6, and arp-ENOUGH. AP and str bonuses stack! Fire these guys at knights, a lord, or a giant.

5) Weapon teams.... honestly I find these guys survivign til the end with me. Maybe because I keep them directly behind, and so out of LoS. I have no fear firing a WFT over my own guys. And if the enemy can see them, and wants to dedicate a turns shooting to them? Fine by me. If I'm playing defensive for some reason, I even slap them in front of my guys to stand and shoot. Massively offensive armies often lack shooting, so its no real trouble. And being charged, dying, and being overrun. Means it will be MY turn, with no combat having happened with the overrun unit... i.e. Perfect flanking time.

As for Skirtch's idea, I lack the chieftains, but it sounds a great idea. I almost ALWAYS target my attacks at rank and file, as its easier to get more combat rez on them. (unless it's a BSB or wizard, ofc). So I could see chieftains being unharmed, and free to wreak havoc.

If there is ONE thing, that needs to be remembered with Skaven? id guess this.

We win, by combat rez. Almost every time. Don't try to murder everything, unless you're running it down!!!
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SomeGuy
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Coeur
Oct 20 2010, 08:36 PM
2) My slaves don't flee. Well, okay, they do sometimes. But generally I can (ironically) count on them to do what they need to do. Having a flank charge too... gosh... that's usually... 0 kills (assuming worst), +3CR ranks, +3CR for 2nd units ranks. +2 for charge + flank.... no steadfast for enemy, or rank bonus... almost always an insane courage roll. Unless the enemy is supremely tough.

I don't think that's right - I think you only add in the rank bonus of the unit with the largest rank bonus, not all the bonuses of all your units.
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chieftainskritchskritch
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The Freshmaker

Coeur
Oct 20 2010, 08:36 PM
As for Skirtch's idea, I lack the chieftains, but it sounds a great idea.

I use the Stormvermin box set to get the Chieftain numbers up. Those models make really great Skaven Heroes!

You kids these days have it so easy, what with your Plague Furnaces and your Hellpit Abominations and your Bonebreaker Warlords. Back in MY day, all we had was Slaves and Clanrats!...and auto-hit Ratling Guns...and skirmishing Jezzails...and 2D6 Warp Lightning...and Lead From The Back...wait, what was my arguement again?
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Pestilent Lord
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SomeGuy
Oct 20 2010, 10:08 PM
Coeur
Oct 20 2010, 08:36 PM
2) My slaves don't flee. Well, okay, they do sometimes. But generally I can (ironically) count on them to do what they need to do. Having a flank charge too... gosh... that's usually... 0 kills (assuming worst), +3CR ranks, +3CR for 2nd units ranks. +2 for charge + flank.... no steadfast for enemy, or rank bonus... almost always an insane courage roll. Unless the enemy is supremely tough.

I don't think that's right - I think you only add in the rank bonus of the unit with the largest rank bonus, not all the bonuses of all your units.

True. However the effectiveness of the slaves in that situation is still impressive. Flank (+1), Charge (+1), Enemy loses their ranks (up to 3 points more in your favor). There are many units out there that can't kill enough slaves to counter the assistance those slaves added even if they had a 100% Hitting and Wounding rate.
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lannister
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Clanrat
Just one little thing i'd like to add, it is imperative to keep as many units as you can within range of the general if possible but watch your flanks.
jezzails and rat ogres can be great for this just keep the rat ogres hidden until they are needed to protect your flank.
Always mistrust a subordinate who never finds fault with his superior..
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deathmaster riddick
I Am The Monster
might i suggest you picking up a batch of older models on ebay? old clanrats can easily pass for chieftans, and dated engineer/seer models still look quite nice. plus, since not many people want these hidden gems you can pick up an army's worth of heroes for 10 dollars or less(american).
The best way to configure an army is to go play demons.-Nevamore Posted on Nov 6 2009, 04:02 PM

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Atropos
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Warpstone Addict
Keep trying. It's all about practicing until you get used to your army and the play-style that suits you most. Nevertheless, you should be aware of many of the things you've already been told by our rat-brothers (And rat-sisters! - ChieftainSkritchSkritch).

We do have weaknesses, as every other army does, but we compensate them with a huge variety of great choices, options and different ways of focusing our armies and strategies.

Keeping our General and BSB alive is a very important task to us. I always use a 4+ ward and a Skalm on my Grey Seer to try to keep him safe from trouble. At least until he's already done some nasty stuff to our enemies, and hence his death will be honoured by the greatness of the Horned Rat.

Field zillions of rats and overwhelm your enemy. We won't have the greatest close combat killing potential, but we do have loads of numbers, great magic and awesome shooting!
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ForeverRat
Clanrat
Thanks to everyone for their enthusiastic replies. I really appreciate it.

It would probably help to give you some background. I am a long time skaven player. I started way back when Ikit Claw could choose from every magic lore and everyone could have riderless manticores! Remember 'flying high' anyone?

I was primarily a horde player. In 6th ed, skaven became a real shooty force, the age of the jezz and ratling gun armies.

I was always really competitive with my army.

Now, I feel the army is falling somewhere in between and I can't really get a handle on it. I do think it is primarily the fault of the new rules, which I am currently not a fan of.

Shooting is so easy now that I don't really see the value in weapons teams for example that just get picked out and killed pretty early in the game. Similarly, jezzails have been weakened by the ease in which they can be shot at and/or panicked off the battlefield.

I really enjoyed using plague censer bearers, but again these have been weakened by the new rules.

With regards to magic, I find it slightly annoying that the best spells are divided between two lores which was never previously the case.

I guess my current army would be a bell riding seer in a unit of stormvermin, several units of slaves, couple of units of poison sling gutter runners, and cannon, and Abomination. The tactic as others have said, is to feed the enemy fodder while you shoot/magic them and try and get flank charges where you can. I just find it a bit underwhelming, and one dimensional, and I guess I am disappointed that some of the interesting troops available to the skaven are not very effective in 8th ed.

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