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Cannonball vs. Screaming Bell
Topic Started: 4th September 2010 - 08:39 AM (1,809 Views)
Chitterfitz
Warlord
Ok so i've had this arguement with a dwarf player at my local gaming store. When he shoots at the screaming bell he says that the cannonball hits both the Bell AND the Seer. Now i argue this isn't true because it specifically says in our rule book Missile hits are randomized. so he calls the rules boys and they tell him that it does indeed hit both the Seer and the Bell. Any thoughts on this guys cause i thought the big rule book gets trumped by the army book everytime.

And yes the cannonball does count as a template weapon.
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jamano
Clanrat
Chitterfitz
Sep 4 2010, 08:39 AM
Ok so i've had this arguement with a dwarf player at my local gaming store. When he shoots at the screaming bell he says that the cannonball hits both the Bell AND the Seer. Now i argue this isn't true because it specifically says in our rule book Missile hits are randomized. so he calls the rules boys and they tell him that it does indeed hit both the Seer and the Bell. Any thoughts on this guys cause i thought the big rule book gets trumped by the army book everytime.

And yes the cannonball does count as a template weapon.

It's not about the army book trumping the rule book, the thing about template hitting the rider and mount is for ridden monsters the bell is a "unique mount" as specified in a BRB it says it has its own rules and to follow them, and in its rules it says you randomize the hit.

That's my thought on it at least.
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Ablabab
Chieftain
Jamano is right - template weapons only score "double hits" against ridden monsters. The screaming bell is no such thing, and thus the 1 hit it can take per cannonball is randomized as per the Skaven army book. There's really no discussion.
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Ratarsed
Grey Seer
Ablabab
Sep 4 2010, 08:18 AM
There's really no discussion.

There will be every time you try to claim the cannon ball does not hit all parts of the model.
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Sleboda
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Ratarsed
Sep 5 2010, 05:34 AM
Ablabab
Sep 4 2010, 08:18 AM
There's really no discussion.

There will be every time you try to claim the cannon ball does not hit all parts of the model.

Yeah, but it should be a quick one.

Putting aside the uber-clear trump to the debate that the rule applies to ridden monsters only and the bell is not a monster, we have this-

Let's say that a player wants to say that the rules in the BRB trump the armybook, somehow, and that the Skaven player should allow his opponent to bypass his own, unique, set of targeting rules. As a Skaven player I would almost be tempted to say "Ok! Great! Then that means you cannot pick it out of the unit with your shooting and spells either, since those rules are part of it's unique targeting rules, which you have proposed we ignore."

I'd love to not have hand gunners and bolt throwers shooting my furnace out of its monk unit.
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Mahtobedis
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Warlord
I think that is an excellent response to people trying to ignore rules about our special units.
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eratu13
Clanrat
Am so happy am now taking my beautifully painted screaming bell of the shelf as thought I would never be able to use it in 8th :D
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mcpolle
Clanrat
could someone please put a page number reference on this, because as far as I was aware, the cannon is a template and therefore hits both bell and Seer.

But would love to be mad edifferent..

Pole
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Pestilent Lord
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mcpolle
Sep 12 2010, 07:49 AM
could someone please put a page number reference on this, because as far as I was aware, the cannon is a template and therefore hits both bell and Seer.

But would love to be mad edifferent..

Pole

The rule that says the template would hit both is a part of the Ridden Monster rules. As a Screaming Bell is a Unique unit and not a Ridden Monster, the double hit does not apply.
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mcpolle
Clanrat
you are perfectly correct, suppose it always helps to look in the rule book :-)

Polle
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Malkrit
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Chosen of vermintide
even if the cannon ball does strike your bell instead of the seer, it will just crush your bell underneath your Seer..
They should give the bell Look Out Sir! so it would be viable :(
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Pestilent Lord
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Queek!!
Sep 15 2010, 01:15 PM
even if the cannon ball does strike your bell instead of the seer, it will just crush your bell underneath your Seer..
They should give the bell Look Out Sir! so it would be viable :(

The Bell has a 4+ Ward Save, so half the time that cannonball will fail utterly.
Also, the Bell has 6 Wounds, so the first cannonball that heads it's way is VERY unlikely to destroy it. Between the ward and the high wound count, a Screaming Bell is probably one of the most cannonball-resistant models in the game.
“A player is never late, Dave. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when the plot dictates he should.”
Skaven 7th:
W/L/D
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High Elves:
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Waaargh
Chieftain
A late comment, if you park a unit well in front of the bell (12" would be preferred) the cannon has a difficult time hitting the bell since it has to be able to see the spot from where it starts rolling arty dice.
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mcpolle
Clanrat
sorry, it does not say that, we have just had this discussion here in DK, if you read the passage for shooting cannons, it actually says

"nominate a point within the war machine LOS, and not outside max range, Your target does not have to be an enemy model, it CAN be a point on the ground if you wish",

Page 112, choose target.

No where does it say that you must choose either the ground or a model, it just gives a couple of examples.

So, sorry, do not agree with your statement. but then I am not playng against you. B)

Polle
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Ratarsed
Grey Seer
Pestilent Lord
Sep 12 2010, 06:59 AM

The rule that says the template would hit both is a part of the Ridden Monster rules. As a Screaming Bell is a Unique unit and not a Ridden Monster, the double hit does not apply.

The rule reguarding templates hitting each location of multi-part models can be found on page 9 and is not specific to ridden monsters, it just gives them as an example of a ridden monster.
The rule that classes a cannon shot as a "special kind of template" can be found on page 113.
The shooting at the screaming bell rules in the army book do nothing but tell you how to distribute hits the Screaming bell suffers (and allow you to target the bell seperately from the unit). Given that the template rules say all locations are hit I would say you have no need to find out how they should be distributed and the hit distribution rules for the screaming bell do not need to be applied.

If you are going to insist that they do then each location would still be hit (nothing in the bells rules stops that) but the hit on the bell would then be randomised 1-5 bell 6 Grey Seer. The hit on the Grey Seer however is not covered at all so he would automaticaly get that. Net result would be 5 in 6 times one hit on each location, 1 in 6 times 2 hits on the Grey Seer.
Clearly 2 hits from one shot on the Grey seer is wrong, or unprecedented at the very least so I would suggest one hit per location is the way to go.
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