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PWM > WFT ?; weapon team comparison
Topic Started: 3rd September 2010 - 10:04 PM (918 Views)
j2klbs
Clanrat
Hi all,

PWM Advantages: Move & Fire, more reliable longer range, no armor save, easier to wound T6+

WFT Advantages: d3 wounds, stand and fire, easier to wound T5 or less

While they both have their advantages, it seems to me that the move or fire restriction of the WFT is very limiting. And unless you have the team parked right in front of the parent unit, it is unlikely to use its stand and fire ability. So, to me it seems that the PWM is significantly better.

However, I am very intersted to know your thoughts and experiences with these two weapon teams.

~Jason
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Kevlar
Doomwheel Driver
j2klbs
Sep 3 2010, 05:04 PM
Hi all,

PWM Advantages: Move & Fire, more reliable longer range, no armor save, easier to wound T6+

WFT Advantages: d3 wounds, stand and fire, easier to wound T5 or less

While they both have their advantages, it seems to me that the move or fire restriction of the WFT is very limiting. And unless you have the team parked right in front of the parent unit, it is unlikely to use its stand and fire ability. So, to me it seems that the PWM is significantly better.

However, I am very intersted to know your thoughts and experiences with these two weapon teams.

~Jason

WFT for me.

1st, I own three.

2nd it busts regenerating units.

3rd it wounds most stuff on 2+.

4th the template is huuuuuuge.

d3 wound is nice too. Not deal breaker, but boy do those OK armies hate it. :)
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Paricidas
Doomwheel Driver
PWMs are quite a no-brainer, as you can just point at your target and say "BOOM".
They are also a little more defensiv, as you can move back and forth and into the protection of your parents units 4+ ward without any penalty to your offense.

Warpflame throwers, at least for me, require some kind of plan. If you dont field them in the rigth position or move them in a wrong way, then they may be a total waste of points as they wont fire at anything worth a missfire and/or are shot to death before they do something useful. I can remmber times when I realized, that after deployment the nearest unit to my warpflamethrower was a doomwheel, needless to say the WFT didnt survive the first shooting phase... Standing behind exploding slaves also doesnt help to much, and I even lost WFTs to a drive-by shooting of some goblin spider riders, who where hunting my WLC.

BUT if the WFT hits, it hits like a truckload of pain and theres more than one game where this thing has won me the game, so for me its the WFT most of the time.
Ceterum censeo Altdorfem esse delendam
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esco thomson
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High Technomancer of Clan Kryptraider
Warpfire Throwers do the whole epitome of Skaven life; high risk, high reward.

One thing to realize is that it will consistently kill things, just so happens a lot of times they are your own things.

As was mentioned above, one solid flame template can literally wreck a unit.

I like them because they give an answer for regeneration, huge blocks, and to be honest nothing makes me smile more than when they light on fire and scatter before popping in a "lurid mushroom cloud".
It's Adventure Time!
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Clan Kryptraider Army Diary
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IronShark
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Warlord
The average damage output from a Warpfire thrower is vastly greater than that of a Poison Wind mortar. It just gets so many more hits.

For example, a unit, 5x4, 20mm base. If its front is 9" away, its rear will be a shade over 12" away. The Flame template is 8" long, and goes 2-10" away, meaning as long as it doesn't misfire, its going to at least 10", and its tail won't go further than 10", so if it doesn't misfire, its hitting at least some models, and everything but 2 and 10 will hit a LOT of models. So 5/6 chance of hitting some models, 50% chance of hitting a lot of models, and S5 Flaming will lay the hurt on most infantry pretty well.

The mortar, on the other hand, if centered on the same unit, will only score hits if it gets a direct hit, or scatter of 2". Seeing as misfire overrides a direct hit, its only getting a direct hit 27.8% of the time. With a scatter and 2", that's another 11% chance of getting some hits. So it's just completely missing a little over 60% of the time. And when it does hit, the 5+ to wound is a lot less scary than the 2+ or 3+ the Warpfire thrower typically needs.

Now, I'm not saying the Mortar is decidedly inferior to the Warpfire. The Mortar, as you said, has significant advantages in range and mobility. But the Warpfire thrower can easily kill in one shot what a Mortar might struggle to do over the entire game.
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Sleboda
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Pensive Penguins Fan

@ IronShark
Nice summary.
Now if I could only get my WFT to, like, ever shoot. I am lucky if it gets a shot off in one in ten games. :(
True scholars have more than just one book to study.
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Pestilent Lord
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Doomwheel Driver
@ IronShark
All true, but of course just because a PWM scatters several inches off of your intended target doesn't always mean no gain. Sometimes you get lucky and it scatters into another target. Far from reliable, but funny when it happens.
“A player is never late, Dave. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when the plot dictates he should.”
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j2klbs
Clanrat
Thanks so much for your thoughts. I really appreciate your insights.

~Jason
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Paricidas
Doomwheel Driver
Thank you Ironshark for the math, really a big differnce in kill power here...

Just to throw in some points for the honor of the PWM:

If you want, you can always get legal targets for the PWM in your 1st shooting phase, the WFT really depends upon the enmies deployment and movment to pull of a 1st-turn shot.

The PWM has a longer range than the WFT and may move and fire, this normaly results in the PWM firing every round it is still alive, while my WFTs normally only get off 1 or two shots per game.

My enemies normaly regard the PWM as a nice litlle skaven-gaget, while they see the WFT as a major threat to nearly everything in their army, thus if I only field one single WFT, its normaly dead after shooting-phase2.

Against certain enemies with high toughness and very good armor, a direct hit of a PWM will kill almost as many models as a WFT (chaos knights and ironbreakers come to my mind). Take a unit of 5 chaos knights as an example, with the WFT you wound 5 knights on a 3 plus and they get a 4+ armor save, which will result in around 0,8 dead chaos worrshipers. The PWM will kill one of them on 4+ and the other 4 on 5+, which results in 1,8 dead knights, which is more than double the damage of the WFT. Of course, if your enemy doesnt (or cant) field such units, this advantage is gone.

The use of PWMs makes our army list a little more flexible, because: a. they are cheaper than WFT and b. there are more troops in the army book which can take PWMs.

Long words short: The PWM is not that bad, its quite situational and depends on luck and opponents to fire at, the WFT is just always good.




Ceterum censeo Altdorfem esse delendam
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Tantryk
Clanrat
IronShark
Sep 3 2010, 09:51 PM
The average damage output from a Warpfire thrower is vastly greater than that of a Poison Wind mortar. It just gets so many more hits.

For example, a unit, 5x4, 20mm base. If its front is 9" away, its rear will be a shade over 12" away. The Flame template is 8" long, and goes 2-10" away, meaning as long as it doesn't misfire, its going to at least 10", and its tail won't go further than 10", so if it doesn't misfire, its hitting at least some models, and everything but 2 and 10 will hit a LOT of models. So 5/6 chance of hitting some models, 50% chance of hitting a lot of models, and S5 Flaming will lay the hurt on most infantry pretty well.

The mortar, on the other hand, if centered on the same unit, will only score hits if it gets a direct hit, or scatter of 2". Seeing as misfire overrides a direct hit, its only getting a direct hit 27.8% of the time. With a scatter and 2", that's another 11% chance of getting some hits. So it's just completely missing a little over 60% of the time. And when it does hit, the 5+ to wound is a lot less scary than the 2+ or 3+ the Warpfire thrower typically needs.

Now, I'm not saying the Mortar is decidedly inferior to the Warpfire. The Mortar, as you said, has significant advantages in range and mobility. But the Warpfire thrower can easily kill in one shot what a Mortar might struggle to do over the entire game.

The wft can do more in one shot but it isnt always likely to get a shot let alone a perfect one whereas the mortar is shooting every turn. I need to test the mortar more but its seeming pretty nasty at the moment
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Mukus
Clanrat
Also, if the Warpfire Thrower inflicts a single wound the unit has to take a panic test. <<< thats pretty awesome
W/D/L
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Warlord Mukus the Be-fouler's kill tally: 5WoC,2 Marauders and a Chaos Spawn

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Kevlar
Doomwheel Driver
Tantryk
Sep 4 2010, 06:21 PM
The wft can do more in one shot but it isnt always likely to get a shot let alone a perfect one whereas the mortar is shooting every turn. I need to test the mortar more but its seeming pretty nasty at the moment

The whole point of my 50 slave blocks is to tie people up long enough to line up that perfect shot with my warp fire thrower. Usually happens on turn 3.
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Mahtobedis
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Warlord
also with the WFT getting hard cover from being behind your infantry, a storm banner, and most likely shooting at range, it is very difficult to get rid of the weapon teams before turn three.

By then you have hopefully thinned out their shooting a bit with your counter gunline elements.
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Tantryk
Clanrat
Except for magic or one of the 10 million template weapons in game now. If someone wants it dead its probably dead
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CurseoftheHornedSheep
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Chieftain
At first I was like, "WARPFIRE THROWERS WARPFIRE THROWERS WARPFIRE THROWERS," but then my opponents were like, "CHEESE CHEESE CHEESE, ALBEIT KILLABLE CHEESE," so then they were all like, "RANGED MAGIC WEAPONS/MAGIC/ARCHERS/HANDGUNNERS/WAR MACHINES/CROSSBOWMEN TO THEIR FACE," and ever since my irradiated fire-spewing, game-winning son-of-a-biscuit has never survived past turn three. :(

Still beats the poisoned wind mortar any day though, except maybe occasionally against high toughness, high-armor infantry like Warriors of Chaos, Lizardmen, and the like.
Despite all my rage, I am still just a rat in a cage...

THIRTEENTH SPELL CASTS: 13 KILLS: 72 Empire Swordsmen, 12 Greatswords, 1 Warrior Priest, 2 Captains of the Empire, 1 Whatever the Empire's lord-level mage is called, 36 Dwarf Hammerers, 2 Thanes, 1 Dwarf Lord on Shieldbearers, 1 Dwarf Lord, 19 Saurus Temple Guard, 14 Chaos Chosen, 12 Glade Guard

Fellblade Kills: 3 Dwarven war machines, 1 Dwarf Runelord, 1 Dark Elf Hyrdra, 1 High Elf Sun Dragon, 1 High Elf Dragon Mage
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