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Assassin & Screaming Bell; how to resolve?
Topic Started: 2nd September 2010 - 12:57 AM (529 Views)
j2klbs
Clanrat
Scenario: 5-wide clanrat unit with screaming bell, standard, musician and assassin. When the assassin is revealed, what happens? The standard and musician must always be in the front (even in preference to characters). Would the assassin in this case "push" the screaming bell back into the second rank?
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Razuli
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Grey Seer
I'm pretty sure your Assassin will be pushed to the second rank.
skavenmatt,Sep 11 2010
10:05 PM
Playing skaven to minimize randomness is like going to prom with your sister, you can do it if you really want, but in the end everyone will still laugh even if you do get lucky.


Clanlord Trask
18th April 2011 - 03:46 AM
I always take at least one Warpfire Thrower. You can't always rely on your opponent to do massive damage to your troops. Sometimes, you just have to do a job yourself.

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Mythal
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Clanrat
Why would you have a bell unit that isn't deployed as a Horde? It's worth the investment for the points you're putting in for the Seer and Bell already, and the Assassin to boot.
http://bighugelabs.com/photos/1b0c61fff3a0...ator5596216.jpg

http://roflrazzi.com/upcoming/?pid=44117&from=recMap2
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Paricidas
Doomwheel Driver
Mythal is abolutly right, you are unbreakable, so you dont need ranks, so why not hord em up?

As an alternativ, if you see a charge coming, you could just present the open flank of the bell unit to the enemy. Your seer cant be attacked and your assassin can use "make way" to get into base-to-base contact.

This will drop your LD to 6, as you lose SiN, but you are unbreakable and in combat, so you are (allmost) immune to shooting and magic and really dont need that SiN while the assassin is hacking the crap out of the attacking charakter models . Your seer can take a nap on his unreachable bell-position in the meantime.
Ceterum censeo Altdorfem esse delendam
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j2klbs
Clanrat
Thanks guys. Those are good points.

The reason I was thinking of having the unit be 5-wide is in order to play the screaming more cautiously as a magic-phase weapons platform and 18" leadership boost. My concern is that the seer can be fairly easily killed in melee. However, maybe I should not be overly worried since my opponent must kill both the seer and the bell to get any VP's.

~Jason
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ForeverRat
Clanrat
My obvious question was why on earth would u take a bell or an assassin.
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Decker_cky
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Master of the Deamonic Leash of Numbers and the Armor of Updates
j2klbs
Sep 2 2010, 08:25 AM
Thanks guys. Those are good points.

The reason I was thinking of having the unit be 5-wide is in order to play the screaming more cautiously as a magic-phase weapons platform and 18" leadership boost. My concern is that the seer can be fairly easily killed in melee. However, maybe I should not be overly worried since my opponent must kill both the seer and the bell to get any VP's.

~Jason

To use it like that, take the rival hide talisman and fencer's blades on your grey seer, then challenge with him. With that, a chaos lord (without extra attacks) wouldn't kill the seer in a round.

5 attacks, 2.5 hit, 1.25 hits after rerolls. 1.041 wounds. Drops to 0.5 wounds after ward save.

Even after that round, 2.5 hits, 2 wounds, drops to 1 wound after ward. If you're really scared, take skalm as well.

No need for an assassin though. He's better used in offensive units to hunt characters.
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Kevlar
Doomwheel Driver
Decker_cky
Sep 3 2010, 11:51 AM
To use it like that, take the rival hide talisman and fencer's blades on your grey seer, then challenge with him. With that, a chaos lord (without extra attacks) wouldn't kill the seer in a round.

5 attacks, 2.5 hit, 1.25 hits after rerolls. 1.041 wounds. Drops to 0.5 wounds after ward save.

Even after that round, 2.5 hits, 2 wounds, drops to 1 wound after ward. If you're really scared, take skalm as well.

No need for an assassin though. He's better used in offensive units to hunt characters.

Yep, cause no one ever puts magic items on their chaos lords.

How would a vamp lord do with inf. hatred, red fury, blade of anti-heroes, and other tricksters shard? Last time I fought vamps he had that load out, and I had 3 characters in my unit. Str 8 vamp with 8 attacks, rerolls and extra attacks for each wound = no joke.

Remember lots of armies will take suicide lords now that they can afford two lords in most lists.

Putting melee items on your seer seems like an incredible waste of points to me. I'd rather give him a hex scroll or feedback scroll.
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Paricidas
Doomwheel Driver
The "problem" I have with the whole question is:

If I want an 18 inch platform that gives 3600 degree sight and a ward save, I dont go into combat with that unit.

If I dont go into combat with that unit, I dont put an 180 points melee char as support into this unit, I buy a freaking hord of slaves with shields that just waits in front of the bell to tar-pit anything that tries to attack my seer.



Just as a sidenote: Even a fully equippt chaos lord may have some problems to tear apart a bell in just one turn (although his halbert wielding khorne-homies may change this quite quickly), and as long as the bell stands and you have no champion in your bell unit, the chaos lord can challenge himself a new one...
Ceterum censeo Altdorfem esse delendam
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Decker_cky
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Master of the Deamonic Leash of Numbers and the Armor of Updates
Champion doesn't even matter as per the new challenge rules. If a grey seer is the only character and his unit is challenged, you can sit on the top of the bell safely.

Quote:
 
Yep, cause no one ever puts magic items on their chaos lords.


Chaos lord was an example of an above average lord, and most often, I see them with most of their points on defensive an maybe a magic weapon. Anti-heroes just works as +1 A in their case effectively, which makes 0.5 wounds 0.6 and 1 wound 1.2 wounds.

That vampire is probably one of the most purely hard hitting builds out there, and luckily, that will be the only lord they have so vamps can't take suicide lords. If your opponent took that and charged right down the center of your lines, I'd hope you'd have a counter that could put hits on him. And it's easy enough to still take a hex scroll with him (hex scroll + fencer blades + rival hide), in which case that vampire lord would probably get at least badly hurt by the rat ogre + grey seer.

To be honest....I haven't seen ANY suicide lords outside of skaven. Armies take a general for survivability and a level 4 caster far more often. Yes...a combat lord into your bell is a bad thing, but for 15 pts, you can at least buy an extra turn for your magic. Fencing blades are to protect him from rank and file attacks mostly (hit on 5's + 4+ ward = not bad). The great thing about being survivable when running the unit 5 wide like that is that anytime the seer gets into a challenge, he'd removing attacks from the unit which often makes everything survive longer.

@Paricidas: Are you going to have a big column 15" long to have 10 deep slaves followed by the screaming bell? :blink: Seems like that might be difficult to arrange and protect (particularly if there's a forest anywhere near), and short of that, I can't see keeping the bell out of combat being too easy. Barring having resilient unit in front of it, either the enemy will break through and hit it or the bell will ring itself forward driving the seer towards combat.
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Paricidas
Doomwheel Driver
Ohh, forgot about the "move forward" result, well I dont play with a bell, as its too big of a point sink for the small games I normally play. That kind of randomness wont make it easier to stay out of combat.

Granted, a single unit of slaves will not protect the bell long enough if 2000 points of infantery/cavallery rushes to get it, but then you have a dead grey seer and your enemy (hopefully) has 200 rats in his flanks and back.

When I play with a grey seer, I normaly place him in a unit of 20 slaves in the middle of my army and hold him back, just out of combat. Units that try to get to him just get scorched or 13thed to manageable bits, works fine for me.

But I wholeheartly agree, if my (nonextisting) bell would be in CC, then I would be glad to have fencing rapiers and all the other nice defensiv items with me.

Ceterum censeo Altdorfem esse delendam
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