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Magic resistance and Death frenzy
Topic Started: 31st July 2010 - 02:41 PM (1,903 Views)
SkavenDan
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zap2828
Aug 8 2010, 07:10 AM
Except that the wounds are caused by a spells effects, there not cause by an overall exhaustion rule that exists in the game. Don't get me wrong I wouldn't play it that way and would call somebody cheese for doing so themselves, but strictly read as worded you would get magic resistance.

No you don't it doesn't say at all that the damage suffered is magical and it's not classed as magical after it's cast.

The wounds are caused by death frenzie which is a special kind of frenzie it makes no reference to magical wounds at all.
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Riktikticheck
Warlord
It does not have to say the wounds are magical or anything else.

You are taking the wounds because of the deathfrenzy spell you cast - if you would not have cast it, you would not be taking the wounds - so the wounds are being caxused by the spell.

And everything that is needed for magic resistance to work is that the wounds are caused by a spell (it will not for example work agains miscasts as those are not spells).

Even tho it might seem cheesy the only thing that matter in the rules is that the wounds are caused by a spell (altho the spell has a permanent effect of making the unit super frenzyed, it is still the cause of the wounds) and that is clearly the case.
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Charming
Clanrat
Should we start rolling different coloured dice for the attacks generated by the spell as well? One of one color and two of another for each attacking clanrat in the first row, just so we know which damage is caused by the spell, and which is just "normal"? Sorry about the tone, but it all just sounds pretty silly, talking "it wouldn't have been there if it wasn't for the spell".
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Riktikticheck
Warlord
That is a fair point, altho i would have to say the extra granted attacks are made by the model while the wounds suffered come from "thin air".

Now i have to say it may very well be meant that the frenzy state is non-magical, but without a FAQ it is hard to prove to one effect or the other.

I have to say tho that i have a trouble of coming to the conclusion that the wounds would not be caused by the spell. I mean as like with all other spells that cause damage it is written in the spell description - the units with this effect take x wounds, it's almost like curse of years if you do not take into account the difference in how long the spell lasts.
The other is Remains in Play, which is permanent until dispelled, deathfrenzy is permanent until lost in close combat.
Now sure the other is a buff spell with a kick, while the other is an attack spell, but both clearly are spells that cause damage at another time than the casting.
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zap2828
Clanrat
To me it seems very clear as far as ruling goes you get magic resistance against wounds caused by a spell (which the source of these wounds is a spell) It doesn't matter if its magical or not.
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Warlock Matik
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I'm going to have to throw my vote in for those against magic resistance for death frenzy; in the mechanics of the spell it says that the unit is put into a state of Death Frenzy, and then proceeds to explain what the Death Frenzy 'state' is. To me this reads the same as giving a unit hatred or poison or regular frenzy, the spell that causes death frenzy and the wounds from the death frenzy state are separate so you wouldn't get MR since they come from a state that the unit is in rather than a spell directly. Death Frenzy can also be gained as an effect from Skavenbrew (annoyingly it doesn't label it as death frenzy, but it is) and you clearly won't get MR for wounds from that.

However, it does seem that you get dodge and other ward saves against them (which is irritating from a fluff standpoint; maybe they dodge the rabid lungings of those around them?)
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Ratemis
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SkavenDan
Aug 8 2010, 06:19 AM
zap2828
Aug 8 2010, 07:10 AM
Except that the wounds are caused by a spells effects, there not cause by an overall exhaustion rule that exists in the game. Don't get me wrong I wouldn't play it that way and would call somebody cheese for doing so themselves, but strictly read as worded you would get magic resistance.

No you don't it doesn't say at all that the damage suffered is magical and it's not classed as magical after it's cast.

The wounds are caused by death frenzie which is a special kind of frenzie it makes no reference to magical wounds at all.

The damage doesn't have to be magical, it just has to be caused by the spell.

The rule doesn't say "against magical damage" it says "against damage caused by spells".

Does the damage from death frenzy come from the spell. Yes, because they don't exhaust themselves regularly.

Does damage from Treachery of Tzeentch come from the spell, yes. Because it's from an effect of the spell.

There's no caveat on it being direct damage.
There's no caveat on it having to be from a certain type of spell.
It just has to be damage caused by the spell.

Even if we were arguing about damage caused directly or indirectly by the spell. Damage to a Death Frenzied unit is caused directly by the spell within it's wording. Nothing about being fatigued, or being worn out. It's automatic wounds wholly caused by the spell.

Additionally the spell gives the models additional attacks, it does not attack for them nor does it make them, attack. So, it is not damage caused by the spell, so there is no MR save against the models' attacks.


In short. The Spell causes automatic wounds to the unit it is cast on. MR rules say that gets a save. The spell does not cause damage to the enemy, it just gives the extra attacks to the unit it is cast on. By the rules of MR, you do not get the magic resistance save for the unit making attacks against an enemy unit.
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Kevlar
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Ratemis
Aug 8 2010, 08:03 PM


Does the damage from death frenzy come from the spell. Yes, because they don't exhaust themselves regularly.


No wounds are not caused by the spell. That is why you do not take them in the magic phase. I don't see why that is so hard for you to comprehend.
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Ratemis
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Kevlar
Aug 8 2010, 08:09 PM
Ratemis
Aug 8 2010, 08:03 PM


Does the damage from death frenzy come from the spell. Yes, because they don't exhaust themselves regularly.


No wounds are not caused by the spell. That is why you do not take them in the magic phase. I don't see why that is so hard for you to comprehend.

The wounds are directly caused by the spell! It's an effect of the spell! I don't see in any way how it's not an effect of the spell when it's even in the spells description.
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Kevlar
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Ratemis
Aug 8 2010, 08:20 PM

The wounds are directly caused by the spell! It's an effect of the spell! I don't see in any way how it's not an effect of the spell when it's even in the spells description.

If you play it that way then you are considering death frenzy a direct damage spell, making it illegal to cast on friendly units.
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Ratemis
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Kevlar
Aug 8 2010, 08:29 PM
Ratemis
Aug 8 2010, 08:20 PM

The wounds are directly caused by the spell! It's an effect of the spell! I don't see in any way how it's not an effect of the spell when it's even in the spells description.

If you play it that way then you are considering death frenzy a direct damage spell, making it illegal to cast on friendly units.

It's an augment spell (if you want to try and describe it). Nothing in the rules says that Augment spell can't cause damage, and nothing says that all spells that cause damage are direct damage spells. Likewise, nothing says that you can only get MR against direct damage spells. Simply damage caused by spells.

Of course, that's only if you're trying to apply all the magic descriptions given in the main rulebook to the spells in the army books, which is unnecessary. The rulebook even says that spells in army books will not need or have descriptions listed in the rulebook.
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" However, Bonebreakers have another mark against them now. Going up a hill can kill your warlord if you roll bad. Should call them Neckbreakers
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SkavenDan
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There is no argument at all it is very simple look at the wording what does it say causes the wounds? fatigue, does it say it is magical fatigue?

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Ratemis
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SkavenDan
Aug 8 2010, 09:22 PM
There is no argument at all it is very simple look at the wording what does it say causes the wounds? fatigue, does it say it is magical fatigue?

Nothing, there's no mention of Fatigue at all. It just says that the unit the spell is cast on takes the damage at the end of each turn.

On page 78, "Fatigue" is not mentioned

Look, in order to preempt the next argument, damage from as spell doesn't have to come in the magic phase for it to be caused by the spell.
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SkavenDan
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I wasn't quoting the book. If it was well written enough I could and we would need to have this discussion. All it says is suffers D6 it doesn't imply it is magic damage.

Because as already said if your going to start down this line then you need to roll separate dice for DF and apply magic resistance against the attacks. It either works both ways or neither :P you can not have your pie and eat it.
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Ratemis
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SkavenDan
Aug 8 2010, 09:46 PM
I wasn't quoting the book. If it was well written enough I could and we would need to have this discussion. All it says is suffers D6 it doesn't imply it is magic damage.

Because as already said if your going to start down this line then you need to roll separate dice for DF and apply magic resistance against the attacks. It either works both ways or neither :P you can not have your pie and eat it.

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The damage doesn't have to be magical, it just has to be caused by the spell.

The rule doesn't say "against magical damage" it says "against damage caused by spells".

Does the damage from death frenzy come from the spell. Yes, because they don't exhaust themselves regularly.

Does damage from Treachery of Tzeentch come from the spell, yes. Because it's from an effect of the spell.

There's no caveat on it being direct damage.
There's no caveat on it having to be from a certain type of spell.
It just has to be damage caused by the spell.

Even if we were arguing about damage caused directly or indirectly by the spell. Damage to a Death Frenzied unit is caused directly by the spell within it's wording. Nothing about being fatigued, or being worn out. It's automatic wounds wholly caused by the spell.

Additionally the spell gives the models additional attacks, it does not attack for them nor does it make them, attack. So, it is not damage caused by the spell, so there is no MR save against the models' attacks.


In short. The Spell causes automatic wounds to the unit it is cast on. MR rules say that gets a save. The spell does not cause damage to the enemy, it just gives the extra attacks to the unit it is cast on. By the rules of MR, you do not get the magic resistance save for the unit making attacks against an enemy unit.


Quoting myself already. My, the argument marry-go-round sure is short this time.

I'll sum up the above arguments:

1. Magic resistance is against any damage caused by the spell, not "magical damage".
2. A unit getting extra attacks from a spell, and that unit using those attacks against an enemy doesn't make it damage caused by the spell.
3. The damage caused by Death Frenzy is directly from the spell, not from Fatigue, not from some other source, they take the damage because the spell was cast on them.
4. The spell types given in the main rulebook do not apply to spells in "older armybooks" as written in the main rulebook rules for choosing targets of a spell.

Approach it from one hundred ways, this is one of the few solid situations in the rules. It's incredibly well written in the rules for GW standards. It's clear cut. I really don't see where the arguments are coming from. Read the spell, read the rules for Magic Resistance, and you've got the answer.
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