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Master Moulders and Rat Ogres; How do they rank and handle challenges?
Topic Started: 21st July 2010 - 12:19 AM (1,419 Views)
Rakashani
Warlord
Ok, I didn't really think about these in 7th Edition so I may have missed things in the old FAQ and discussion threads. Now that we're in 8th it is possible (although it does not seem likely) that things have changed a bit.

First, if you have 3 Rat Ogres and a Master Moulder, I know the Moulder has to line up in the first rank as a champion. If you add a Packmaster to this unit, does he have to line up behind the Moulder to complete the file or could he line up behind the Ogres essentially treating the Moulder as a "wrong-sized hero" model placed at the front corner of a unit?

In the unit with no Packmaster, if you wound up getting challenged, could you decline the challenge and step behind the rank of Ogres? Would it matter whether or not it meant removing a model from combat?

If you put in a Packmaster who was ranked up behind the Moulder making you 40mm deep and 140mm wide, if you decline the challenge it is pretty clear you would swap places with the Packmaster. Then if the opponent beats the Packmaster up would you, like other champions, take those wounds and apply them to the champion (in spite of the fact that he is higher T and multiwound)?

These are things I didn't really consider under 7th but now I am wondering if I might want a Master Moulder or two in hammer units of Ogres who are intended to flank and I find that I don't know how to handle them.
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li qin


1. Unsure untill GW clarify, but I would play it that way.

2. No, you can't decline a challange if there is second rank, the number of models in comat can't decrease unless they're killed.

3. Yes.

Master moulders are best in small units of Ratorgers, but in larger unit's they do suffer. If tyour worried about challanges take a master bred ratorger. He can kill most heros and some lords for the nice underdog points.
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Rakashani
Warlord
Ah, sillier and sillier. In 8th edition a champion cannot be forced to retire if he refuses a challenge. p. 102

Hrmmm... Gotta think about that. It means that I don't have to accept challenges but cannot protect him from hitty units...
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Eshk
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Chieftain
I have been wondering these same things myself since 8th came out. I don't really find master moulders to be all that worth it anymore since they will likey die in a round or two of combat but I would like to know how its played regardless.
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Ratemis
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Made of 110% Skaven!
See page 98 of the rulebook.
If on a base that doesn't rank up well in a unit, you go to the outside edge of the unit, and are not counted for ranks (not that packmasters or MMs are anyways.) You don't place anyone behind the MM.

If a challenge is declined, you move to the back rank.
My Skaven Army, now with Testudorats!
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" However, Bonebreakers have another mark against them now. Going up a hill can kill your warlord if you roll bad. Should call them Neckbreakers
"Get down from there! You could fall and break your neck!""
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Stripsteak
Warlord
Ratemis
Jul 21 2010, 04:38 PM
If a challenge is declined, you move to the back rank.

only for characters not for unit champions. see pg 102 unit champions can only accept challenges they don't refuse them, and when the opponent gets to choose a character champions are not allowed to be chosen.
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Charming
Clanrat
And it actually only says a rank that isn't in base contact with the enemy. Also it doesn't say anything about you not being able to attack - the only thing that's negative is that you can't use the leadership (doesn't matter to skaven due to Verminous Valour), and if you have a whip. Well..

A bit of nasty powergaming that I'm not a fan of, but that's how the rules are written.
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Rakashani
Warlord
Keep in mind that a Master Moulder is not a base that does not fit. It's a mixed size unit, yes, but a pair of 20mm bases lines up nicely with a rank of 40mm Ogres. That means that you'd use the following logic...

Moulder must go in the front rank (alone if there is no other Packmaster in the unit). If there is a Packmaster then he must rank up which means he's going to go behind the Moulder to finish off a rank. There's no exception given since the Moulder is a champion and part of the unit, not a character.

As near as I can tell, you could, if you wanted to for some sick reason, put the Master Moulder in the middle of the front rank with a Packmaster behind him or next to him and then if you have the Packmaster beside him you could put an Ogre behind them. It wouldn't be effective, but it would satisfy the 8th edition requirements for ranking in even lines.
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Ratemis
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Made of 110% Skaven!
Rakashani
Jul 22 2010, 02:59 PM
Keep in mind that a Master Moulder is not a base that does not fit. It's a mixed size unit, yes, but a pair of 20mm bases lines up nicely with a rank of 40mm Ogres. That means that you'd use the following logic...

Moulder must go in the front rank (alone if there is no other Packmaster in the unit). If there is a Packmaster then he must rank up which means he's going to go behind the Moulder to finish off a rank. There's no exception given since the Moulder is a champion and part of the unit, not a character.

As near as I can tell, you could, if you wanted to for some sick reason, put the Master Moulder in the middle of the front rank with a Packmaster behind him or next to him and then if you have the Packmaster beside him you could put an Ogre behind them. It wouldn't be effective, but it would satisfy the 8th edition requirements for ranking in even lines.

That's like saying that a goblin fits in a unit of orcs. "Sure one base doesn't fit, but 6 of them do!"
My Skaven Army, now with Testudorats!
Posted Image
" However, Bonebreakers have another mark against them now. Going up a hill can kill your warlord if you roll bad. Should call them Neckbreakers
"Get down from there! You could fall and break your neck!""
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Ratemis
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Made of 110% Skaven!
Stripsteak
Jul 22 2010, 11:13 AM
Ratemis
Jul 21 2010, 04:38 PM
If a challenge is declined, you move to the back rank.

only for characters not for unit champions. see pg 102 unit champions can only accept challenges they don't refuse them, and when the opponent gets to choose a character champions are not allowed to be chosen.

If you don't accept a challenge, you refuse it. Page 102 is the same rules for characters as it is for champions. As a champion resolves challenges the same way as characters and challenges on page 102.
My Skaven Army, now with Testudorats!
Posted Image
" However, Bonebreakers have another mark against them now. Going up a hill can kill your warlord if you roll bad. Should call them Neckbreakers
"Get down from there! You could fall and break your neck!""
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Charming
Clanrat
Ratemis; Champions can be challenged, but don't have to move if they refuse. BRB page under refusing challenges..

Also you don't gain anything from putting a packmaster behind a master moulder as they can only whip past rat ogres and giant rats.
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jamano
Clanrat
Well think about it the other way, a unit of clanrats with a Warlord on warlitter with a 40mil base, he can easily fit in the middle of the front rank, why should he have to be sitting on the right side?
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Rakashani
Warlord
Ratemis
Jul 22 2010, 03:08 PM
That's like saying that a goblin fits in a unit of orcs. "Sure one base doesn't fit, but 6 of them do!"

Actually it's not since a Goblin is not simple fraction of an Orc. A Packmaster or Master Moulder, however, *is* a simple fraction of an Ogre meaning that you can replace exactly one of the larger model with a number of the smaller.
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Eshk
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Chieftain
jamano
Jul 22 2010, 04:50 PM
Well think about it the other way, a unit of clanrats with a Warlord on warlitter with a 40mil base, he can easily fit in the middle of the front rank, why should he have to be sitting on the right side?

He doesn't have to. Since he is a simple multiple of the rest of the unit, he can be put inside the unit. Its similar to characters on cav bases inside units of models on 25m bases, an example they use in the book.

But I'm not sure about the argument for master moulders acting like characters on different sized bases than the unit. Since its a mixed unit and champions rather than a character joining a unit.
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Charming
Clanrat
And I'm ashamed, of course you can't attack if you've refused a challenge. Note to self: dream on.
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