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Bonebreaker and "Look Out Sir!"; What is the roll?
Topic Started: 14th July 2010 - 05:26 PM (1,682 Views)
mrtn
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chieftainskritchskritch
Jul 15 2010, 05:00 AM
Pretty much bones the Bonebreaker mount choice (and Pox Rat, for that matter) right there.

The pox rat is a war beast just like giant rats. :)
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Beefriedrice


mrtn
Jul 15 2010, 10:30 AM
chieftainskritchskritch
Jul 15 2010, 05:00 AM
Pretty much bones the Bonebreaker mount choice (and Pox Rat, for that matter) right there.

The pox rat is a war beast just like giant rats. :)

But a war beast with a character on it follows the rules for Calvary I believe. :angry:

I really like 8th except the part where every rule is a pointer to a different rule. Even for GW that's a lot of effort to answer any rules question.
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Bobtailmaneater
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Decker_cky
Jul 14 2010, 02:46 PM
Same unit type - base size has nothing to do with it. Warlord on bonebreaker is monstrous cavalry so unless joined to monstrous cavalry, he's hooped (rat ogres are monstrous infantry).

War litter is infantry, so you get a look out sir in infantry.

This really rubs me the wrong way. What other armies are going to be effected by this? If none, then I think we should try to get a specific FAQ ruling on this for the Skaven.
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Decker_cky
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Warriors of chaos gets affected with juggernaut mounts which can't get look out sir anywhere.

Not sure if there's any others out there.
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Eshk
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Realistically, a lot of armies get affected. Not that they CAN'T put their mounted general somewhere but that they don't necessarily even want a cavalry unit in their army. Since cav got kind if nerfed, I think we are going to see a lot less of it which means characters will either have to be on foot in units or get a cav bunker to roam around in.
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Bobtailmaneater
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I'm definitely thinking this was an oversight. There's a big difference between a model on a griffon or dragon and one on a cavalry mount in a cavalry unit, where it just so happens that the cavalry aren't horses but something else specific to another, non-horse using race. I know it's arguing for fluff, but "fluff" is kinda the reason I play this game in the first place.

And as I understand it, the Bonebreaker doesn't even get many of his stats because it's a "combined model"...so I am really at a loss as to why I am staying up late sculpting one right now. Clearly I should be working on a War litter instead. I had planned to take one of each. With the right wards and such, maybe that's still viable, but maybe not. It's a lot of vulnerable points and from a pure math perspective, probably not really worth it. Tell me I'm wrong :huh:
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Decker_cky
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Bobtailmaneater
Jul 15 2010, 11:10 AM
I'm definitely thinking this was an oversight. There's a big difference between a model on a griffon or dragon and one on a cavalry mount in a cavalry unit, where it just so happens that the cavalry aren't horses but something else specific to another, non-horse using race. I know it's arguing for fluff, but "fluff" is kinda the reason I play this game in the first place.

And as I understand it, the Bonebreaker doesn't even get many of his stats because it's a "combined model"...so I am really at a loss as to why I am staying up late sculpting one right now. Clearly I should be working on a War litter instead. I had planned to take one of each. With the right wards and such, maybe that's still viable, but maybe not. It's a lot of vulnerable points and from a pure math perspective, probably not really worth it. Tell me I'm wrong :huh:

For the points you get a bunch of high strength attacks, a stomp hit, a wound, you cause fear, you're immune to killing blow, you get higher movement and swiftstride (I think).

If it allowed a look out sir, the bonebreaker would be flat out better than a war litter. As is, they're both worth the points.
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Bobtailmaneater
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I think the war litter is still the better choice for the army general. The lord on the BB is really going to be a CC monster, leading a unit of Rat Ogres and hopefully just presenting one more target to diffuse enemy shooting. A ward save on this guy, along with the Fellblade perhaps, seems to be the way to go.

I will now return to my sculpting and try not to think about the rules too much more!
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mrtn
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Beefriedrice
Jul 15 2010, 03:52 PM
mrtn
Jul 15 2010, 10:30 AM
chieftainskritchskritch
Jul 15 2010, 05:00 AM
Pretty much bones the Bonebreaker mount choice (and Pox Rat, for that matter) right there.

The pox rat is a war beast just like giant rats. :)

But a war beast with a character on it follows the rules for Calvary I believe. :angry:

"Some characters can ride war beasts, in which case the model uses the rules for cavalry (see page 82)."

Use the rules for is not the same as counts as cavalry instead of war beasts. If they wanted the pox rat to be cavalry they could have just not errataed it altogether, instead of make an errata that makes a cavalry model => war beast => cavalry.

They have been assigned a troop type, what rules they use shouldn't matter when it comes to questions of troop type.
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IronShark
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Warlord
Quote:
 
What other armies are going to be effected by this?


To varying degrees, the new Look Out Sir restriction affects quite a few armies.

Formerly, a Horse, Boar, etc, was an easy way to get +1 or +2 to your armor save, and a bonus attack for relatively cheap. It was fairly common to just throw a character onto a mount and stick him in a unit of infantry. Pretty much every Orc combat character I've ever seen was on a Boar, and I've seen a variety of Elf, Empire, and Chaos units stuck on a horse and then placed in a unit of infantry, because why not?

We got hit harder than many, for sure, but this in some way affects every race who can take a mount.
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squee45


Bobtailmaneater
15th July 2010 - 09:04 PM
... A ward save on this guy, along with the Fellblade perhaps, seems to be the way to go...

I don't see how you are going to manage the Fellblade and any ward save, unless you are playing without the 100pt item cap.
Edited by squee45, 20th September 2011 - 01:32 AM.
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Paricidas
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Everyone at my place who fields lone characters (lizzardmen, HE), equips them with the (enchanted?) shield that gives a 2+ wardsave against the first hit. It may save the character from the first cannon shot/stonethrower, if the enemy does not hit you with ballistic shooting first.
Of course this has a major downside, as this will lead to rather crappy armor saves (heavy armor, mounted, shield = 3+)
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mrtn
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squee45, please look at the last posting date of a thread, this thread is more than a year old, and I'm sure Bob isn't really interested in discussing something he said last summer. Especially since it's off topic. ^Warpfire^
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Scarr, Reincarnated
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Ratarsed
15th July 2010 - 09:54 AM
4+ Ward, Worlds edge armour, Sword of Antiheroes and a shield should see the Bonebreaker through all but the most concentrated barrage of cannons and stone throwers
Charmed Shield is both cheaper and better than the World's Edge Armour. With World's Edge Armour your guy won't die fromthe first cannonshot but he will probalby die when he reaches combat.

Edit: Oops. Forgot to look at the time he posted.
Edited by Scarr, Reincarnated, 20th September 2011 - 10:05 AM.
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Ablabab
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@Decker_cky:

In a interesting, completely non-sensical way, the rules as written lets Monstrous Cavalry also be Cavalry, meaning that a Juggernaut can get a LOS-save from regular cavalry.

Before you disagree with me, read the rules thoroughly. It's not very obvious, but it's there.
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