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Clanrats - Spears or no?; a little theoryhammer for 8th
Topic Started: 6th July 2010 - 06:59 PM (1,646 Views)
Paricidas
Doomwheel Driver
Some arguments against spears:

1. I assembled 50+ clanrats with shield and HW just before the rumors of 8th edition started to spread.

2. All the employees at my GW shop are playing with spears.

3. If you have a hord of clanrats with spears, they only need 10 casualities to give you absolutly no bonuses.

4. Buying spears for 40 clanrats costs 20 points, improves their damage output by just 25% percent, which in numbers makes for 10 ws3 str 3 attacks.

With shields you get:

1. An additional AS of 5 instead of 6

2. A 6S against any non-stomp attack in HTH combat.


Summary: Against most enemies, I think the 10 s3 attacks simply dont cut it, and I want my clanrats to stand as long as possible, so I take shields.
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SkavenDan
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1. Good for you complain when you have assembled 300 like me :P

2. Thats because they realise the bonus of spears.

3. How will 10 casualties give you no bonus? I think your talking theory hammer :P only fools take small units. I haven't taken a unit under 40 strong in 8th.

4. a 25% boost for 20 points is good. I mean what else will you get thats so awesome for 20 points?

5. shields suck why buy them I ask?
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Decker_cky
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Master of the Deamonic Leash of Numbers and the Armor of Updates
When parry applies, you get a 6+ ward save. Nothing about it only being when your save is negated. Only applies to the front in combat, and not against impact hits and stomp attacks. This means you need to redo all those calculations. :P
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Anukex
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Stormvermin
I'm tanking the shields for the armor save. With all the "everything touched" templates it should pay off for horde armys.
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Ratemis
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Made of 110% Skaven!
I'm not sure I really get the fervor over Horde. Sure, you get 1 more rank of attacks, but you're leaving 2-3 models unengaged at the front. You're also opening yourself up to an easy double charge on the front of the unit, which is very deadly in 8th.
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" However, Bonebreakers have another mark against them now. Going up a hill can kill your warlord if you roll bad. Should call them Neckbreakers
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Anukex
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Stormvermin
Eh for me it works, I fight alot of 7 wide Sword Masters and now 10 wide Goblin units, so having one unit of 10 wide should help.
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Decker_cky
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You don't have to choose before the game. In almost every game, you'll want either a 10 wide unit for kills or a 10 deep unit for steadfast. All it takes to switch from one to the other is a passed leadership test in the remaining moves phase.
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Acidrakken


So the essential point about the 6+ ward is that units with it take 16%, or put another way 1-in-6, fewer casualties over time. This applies over and over again no matter what you're up against.

I question, therefore, whether the odd singleton saved is going to make much difference at all since we are much more likely to be running deep enough to be steadfast.

The third rank involved in combat (assuming the skaven did not charge that turn) is going to mean 50% more kills, but at a cost of 20% more deaths taken back. Unfortunately (when it comes to getting a clean answer to this debate) that is going to be very situational. When enemies are tough and well armored enough to drive kill numbers down (dwarfs, I'm looking at you), and/or are striking back with things like great weapons - hw/shield is a clear winner. Against "normal" toughness/armor infantry blocks (elves/men), spears come out ahead.


Incidental question, since it sort of came up a few posts ago - assuming spears are still written that they don't give their bonus rank when the regiment moves, does using the reform in combat count as movement, thus denying the extra rank on that turn?
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Snic Filthclaw
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The Gentlerat
Thanks for answering my question.

I have no idea whether to use shields or spears... such a tough decision. guess I'll just leave the arms off for now and just paint bodies until I make up my mind. :P
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Paricidas
Doomwheel Driver
"3. How will 10 casualties give you no bonus? I think your talking theory hammer only fools take small units. I haven't taken a unit under 40 strong in 8th."

Of course i am talking theory hammer, havent played a single game in 8th.

But if you kill 10 "shielded" clanrats out of 40, they lose zero attacks, if you kill 10 "speared" clanrats, they lose 10 attacks, so both are at 30 attacks per turn and the spears and the 20 points spent for them just became useless while the shieldrats still have a 6+ save.
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Ratemis
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Acidrakken
Jul 7 2010, 03:59 PM
So the essential point about the 6+ ward is that units with it take 16%, or put another way 1-in-6, fewer casualties over time.  This applies over and over again no matter what you're up against.

I question, therefore, whether the odd singleton saved is going to make much difference at all since we are much more likely to be running deep enough to be steadfast.

The third rank involved in combat (assuming the skaven did not charge that turn) is going to mean 50% more kills, but at a cost of 20% more deaths taken back.  Unfortunately (when it comes to getting a clean answer to this debate) that is going to be very situational.  When enemies are tough and well armored enough to drive kill numbers down (dwarfs, I'm looking at you), and/or are striking back with things like great weapons - hw/shield is a clear winner.  Against "normal" toughness/armor infantry blocks (elves/men), spears come out ahead.


Incidental question, since it sort of came up a few posts ago -  assuming spears are still written that they don't give their bonus rank when the regiment moves, does using the reform in combat count as movement, thus denying the extra rank on that turn?

I think the shields come in more as a method of combat resolution bonus denial. Those singletons may not be able to kill a lot, but that's points the enemy doesn't get towards combat res.


And yes, spears still only work if you don't charge with them.


Quote:
 
"3. How will 10 casualties give you no bonus? I think your talking theory hammer only fools take small units. I haven't taken a unit under 40 strong in 8th."

Of course i am talking theory hammer, havent played a single game in 8th.

But if you kill 10 "shielded" clanrats out of 40, they lose zero attacks, if you kill 10 "speared" clanrats, they lose 10 attacks, so both are at 30 attacks per turn and the spears and the 20 points spent for them just became useless while the shieldrats still have a 6+ save.
They don't lose any attacks unless you're only running units with three ranks on a normal formation. If you're running a horde with only 4 ranks, then shame on you.
My Skaven Army, now with Testudorats!
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" However, Bonebreakers have another mark against them now. Going up a hill can kill your warlord if you roll bad. Should call them Neckbreakers
"Get down from there! You could fall and break your neck!""
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kbolster54321


Anukex
Jul 7 2010, 07:42 PM
I'm tanking the shields for the armor save. With all the "everything touched" templates it should pay off for horde armys.

That and the fact that most template weapons (stone thowers) will now allow for armor saves it will make a difference. Don't forget that it will also bump your save against all the extra shooting attacks that will be fling around too. i expect to see more archer blocks now that they shoot in two ranks and 50% of everyone left over. I know my NG army list is playing around with a Horde size NG archer unit with poison.

Quote:
 
They don't lose any attacks unless you're only running units with three ranks on a normal formation. If you're running a horde with only 4 ranks, then shame on you.


Really? I can see a large advantage to using 40-48 in normal formation and then auto-boting to horde mode in those situational moments when it would be advantageous. Like when we can actually something.

I honestly can't wait to open my WFT on some horde size units. A little strategy and some luck and they are toast.
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maxkool
Clanrat
Ive never seen WYSWYG enforced in fantasy like it is in 40k.

I made all my clannies and slaves a mix of HW+Sheild and Spears

No one has ever mad issue if I mention what they are using.... *treat the spears as a handwep... like a sword tied to a stick*

IIRC Fantasy didnt even have WYSWYG in the 7th rulebook, as that would mean alot of command crew wouldnt have attacks (no wepons modled on alot of standard barers n musicians)

!!!!!WANTED!!!!!

6TH Ed Clanrats... you know, the good ol Monkey rats..
Painted or not, Assembled or not...

PM me and we can work somthing out.
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Kevlar
Doomwheel Driver
maxkool
Jul 11 2010, 03:37 PM
IIRC Fantasy didnt even have WYSWYG in the 7th rulebook, as that would mean alot of command crew wouldnt have attacks (no wepons modled on alot of standard barers n musicians)

I always thought the Standard Bearer whacked them with the stick. I did feel it sort of odd that in the early books standard bearers couldn't take shields, but in the later books shields were okay. I mean how do you hold a shield and a standard? 3 arms? I guess chaos could. Or a skaven tail-shield instead of a tail-weapon.
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SkavenDan
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Generally in old days they straped the shield to your arm so you couldn't drop it. Having your shield when you need it the most was usually a case of life and death. And this how I always imagined standards and BSB would cope.
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