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Clanrats - Spears or no?; a little theoryhammer for 8th
Topic Started: 6th July 2010 - 06:59 PM (1,643 Views)
Acidrakken


As of right now, I have 6 boxes of unassembled clanrats, and while two of those boxes are earmarked to become slave units, the others have a need to know how they'll be equipped. The discussion seems to be whether the parry ward save outweighs the spear's extra fighting rank. Since I hadn't seen a topic addressing this, I decided to take it on myself.


First, the TL;DR version

Spears, yes. At an 11% price premium over a hw/shield rat, the spear offers 50% more kills on any non-charging round if you can keep your three fighting ranks filled. Further, it only incurs a 20% death penalty against opponents which completely deny armor save (eff: S5 or better).

On the charge, spear-equipped rats will theoryhammer out exactly the same as their hw/shield littermates, which means your price premium is wasted if and only if:

  • You always get the charge
  • You always break the enemy in a single round of combat.

Now the detailed version

Two hypothetical units,

Clanrats1
WS3, S3, T3, Light Armor, HW, Shield.
AS: 5+, 6+ parry save
Clanrats2
WS3, S3, T3, Light Armor, Spear, Shield
AS: 5+, fight in 3 ranks

Against normal enemy: WS3, T3, Light Armor, HW, Shield
C1 – 10/5/2.5/ 1.6 vs 1.6
C2 – 15/7.5/3.75/ 2.5 vs 1.6
C2 has 56% kill advantage

Against enemy with Halberd
C1 – 10/5/2.5/ 2.11 vs 10/5/3.33/ 2.812
C2 – 15/7.5/3.75/3.17 vs 10/5/3.33/ 2.812
C2 has 50% kill advantage

Against enemy with Great weapon
C1 – 10/5/2.5/ 2.11 vs 10/5/4.22/3.51
C2 – 15/7.5/3.75/ 3.17 vs 10/5/4.22/4.22
C2 has a 50% kill advantage; 20% death penalty

Against enemy with WS4, S4, T4, Heavy Armor, Shield (4+ sv)
C1 – 10/5/1.66/.833 vs 10/6.66/4.44/3.70
C2 – 15/7.5/2.5/1.24 vs 10/6.66/4.44/3.70
C2 has a 48% kill advantage

Worst case scenario: hit on 6+, wound on 6+, 2+ AS; get hit on 2+, get wound on 2+, no AS
C1 – 10/1.666/.276/ .046 vs 10/8.33/6.93/ 5.78
C2 – 15/2.5/.416/ .069 vs 10/8.33/6.93/ 6.93
C2 has a 50% kill advantage; 20% death penalty (Yes, I know this example is somewhat specious. 50% more of next-to-nothing is still next-to-nothing. However, even here the 20% death penalty is not what's going to hurt you - either you're running deep enough to be steadfast, or you're making a break test on 4(hw/shield) or 3(spear/shield). And those numbers are best-case numbers, i.e. still have 3 ranks for SiN and Warlord/Grey nearby.


Ok, then - this is one of my first attempts at theoryhammer, so if there's something I've completely bollixed up, please to let me know.
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SkavenDan
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Have you accounted for the charger getting +1 to Combat res?

Didn't read it all.
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Acidrakken


I noted above that when making a charge, the spear equipped rats function exactly as hw/shield rats, since you don't get to use the extra fighting rank when moving. Thus, since both regiments would be getting that +1 CR, it's not a factor when charging.

However, except in the very worst case matchups, the 50% kill bonus from using spears just about amounts to something very close to 1. So it would just about cancel that CR bonus when receiving a charge, and benefits our clanrats in protracted combats (which seem to be the order of the day in 8th).
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Jazz22
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Chieftain
I'm pretty solidly devoted to using spears on my Clanrats at all times. If anything, the change from +1 Save in CC to a 6+ Ward just cemented my belief that Clanrats are better off with Spears. Overall, the extra rank goes much further toward helping you win (or at least hold out) in combat, especially if you're taking advantage of hordes and using 4 full ranks to attack. Even if you're not, that wimpy Ward save probably won't save you either way! :rolleyes:

This is a good bit of Mathhammer, though. Looking forward to seeing more!
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Typoko
Clanrat
Hi!

I see you mention the parry save, but you haven't added it in to all of your calculations. Some other stuff seems to be a bit off also...

Against normal enemy: WS3, T3, Light Armor, HW, Shield
C1 – 1.4 vs 1.4
C2 – 2.1 vs 1.7

Against enemy with Halberd
C1 – 2.1 vs 2.3
C2 – 3.1 vs 2.8

Against enemy with Great weapon
C1 – 2.1 vs 3.5
C2 – 3.1 vs 4.2

From what i see is that i most likely will still stay with hw/shiled and toss a cheap chief to boot the killing up if i don't want them to be tarpitting and waiting for the flank attack to come. If i would go spears i think i would try 7 wide. It's 6 extra attacks against 5 wide and it's not that much more harder to move around.
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Acidrakken


The reason I haven't added the parry save to all calculations is that in my understanding of the rules for 8th, the parry save only applies if you're hit hard enough to negate your normal armor save. The calculations in which the parry save was skipped were not hit with an AS negating strength.
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Pestilent Lord
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Doomwheel Driver
Jazz22
Jul 6 2010, 03:15 PM
I'm pretty solidly devoted to using spears on my Clanrats at all times. If anything, the change from +1 Save in CC to a 6+ Ward just cemented my belief that Clanrats are better off with Spears. Overall, the extra rank goes much further toward helping you win (or at least hold out) in combat, especially if you're taking advantage of hordes and using 4 full ranks to attack. Even if you're not, that wimpy Ward save probably won't save you either way! :rolleyes:

I was a fan of shields over spears before now, but with the parry being a 6+ ward now I'm probably going to start using my spear-modeled Clanrats as actual spear-wielding Clanrats.
A friend of mine sometimes uses Orcs and Goblins, and tends to bring big units of Savage Orcs and Savage Boar Boyz. His favored saying about their Warpaint (a 6+ ward) is that a 6+ ward is actually less useful than no ward at all, because when you have no ward you have no expectation that you might save something.
“A player is never late, Dave. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when the plot dictates he should.”
Skaven 7th:
W/L/D
6/5/2
High Elves:
2/3/1
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mightyzombie
Clanrat
Acidrakken
Jul 6 2010, 09:56 PM
The reason I haven't added the parry save to all calculations is that in my understanding of the rules for 8th, the parry save only applies if you're hit hard enough to negate your normal armor save. The calculations in which the parry save was skipped were not hit with an AS negating strength.

Looking over the Parry Save rules, i'm not seeing anything that indicates this, although I was under the same impression from all the rumours that had been flying around.
Kevlar
 
Oh well, at least the doomwheel can charge backwards.  Can't win em all.
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SkavenDan
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The reason they don't get a parry save is because you don't purchase them the shields lol.

Really making a 6s a 5s means nothing so why bother at all?
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Acidrakken


mightyzombie
Jul 6 2010, 10:45 PM
Acidrakken
Jul 6 2010, 09:56 PM
The reason I haven't added the parry save to all calculations is that in my understanding of the rules for 8th, the parry save only applies if you're hit hard enough to negate your normal armor save.  The calculations in which the parry save was skipped were not hit with an AS negating strength.

Looking over the Parry Save rules, i'm not seeing anything that indicates this, although I was under the same impression from all the rumours that had been flying around.

Hmmm, this may be a mental holdover from when it was rumored that we were going to a "one-save-only" rule like 40k has. Would change the numbers a bit by pushing the unsaved wound numbers down a little bit on the hw/shield guys.

Even if everyone gets the 6+ ward save, though, a 20% death penalty is still generally less than a full wound (seems to cap out around .7 wounds for a 5-wide frontage with single attacks) whereas we tend to gain a full wound in combat until the enemy becomes very elite. S4/T4 and armored.
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Ratmaster Rex
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I see lead people
From a modeling standpoint, make the units around half and half. Or at least the last rank as whatever the first two/three are not. If you have 80 clanrats, make 35-40 with HW+Shield and 40-45 with Spears+Shield. This way if you did want a unit of HW+S (like for 9th edition), you can still make one or two.

If you model them all with spears and you want to try a unit or two of hand weapons WYSIWYG prevents you.
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Snic Filthclaw
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Acidrakken
Jul 6 2010, 08:59 PM
Clanrats2
WS3, S3, T3, Light Armor, Spear, Shield
AS: 5+, fight in 3 ranks

Ok I haven't brought myself to reading all the rules yet but can someone explain to me why they fight in 3 ranks? I know the spears give you an extra rank to fight with but that only brings it to 2... what am I overlooking here?
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SkavenDan
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Snic Filthclaw
Jul 7 2010, 10:34 AM
Acidrakken
Jul 6 2010, 08:59 PM
Clanrats2
WS3, S3, T3, Light Armor, Spear, Shield
AS: 5+, fight in 3 ranks

Ok I haven't brought myself to reading all the rules yet but can someone explain to me why they fight in 3 ranks? I know the spears give you an extra rank to fight with but that only brings it to 2... what am I overlooking here?

In 8th all units fight in 2 ranks.

So you get 2 reguardless. and an extra 1 for spears. So assuming your charged or in the second round of combat spears = 3 ranks.

Horde rule can take you to 4 ranks fighting.
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Shivan_Angel
Stormvermin
In 8th units fight in two ranks, but the second rank only gets one attack. (doesnt make a difference with clan rats, but does with other units). Unless your monstrous infantry, then you get full attacks.
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Anukex
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Stormvermin
I think my little skaven will be the ones charged in 8th. As SkavenDan stated 4 ranks for spears in 8th if you are charged and a horde unit. Going to be running a 50-60+ strong unit with spears and shields.
horde + being charged + spears + more ranks = profit
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