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Stormvermin; blocks, or flankers?
Topic Started: 4th July 2010 - 11:10 PM (1,976 Views)
Ratman123
Clanrat
Hello, I need to know whether my stormvermin would be better as

- 4,small 10 man flanking units, to negate ranks, and maybe have extra weapon teams

- 30 to 40 men blocks with command/magic banner

I already asked this on another section of this forum but the conversation got a little off topic. If you already responded earlier then you are obviously exempt. I just need a straight answer!

Thank You :)

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Warlock Matik
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(Z–>)90º – (E–N²W)90ºt = 1

You will probably get more mileage out of a big block or a couple of medium blocks than using multiple minimum sized units. That said, I have toyed with the idea of multiple units with fang leader warp-muskets and weapon teams for all. Either way you go about it you can certainly assemble around 28 since at most you'll have 12 command models: all the rest will be regular rank and file.
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SkavenDan
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Doomwheel Fanatic
SkavenDan
Jul 4 2010, 07:03 PM
Personally I would go with a unit of 30-40 Stormvermin.

As before. Full command. Banner of dripping death is my favorite.
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carcharoth
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Slayer of Lizardmen
definitely big block. the extra staying power is great, especially under 8th.
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Decker_cky
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Master of the Deamonic Leash of Numbers and the Armor of Updates
You have access to very capable flankers in blocks of slaves and clanrats (20-25 models) already for less or a comparable price to 10 stormvermin. Take stormvermin in blocks of 30-40. See strength in numbers for why you should do this.
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CurseoftheHornedSheep
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Chieftain
I vote... 30+. But yeah, larger units--I prefer giant rats, skavenslaves, and clanrats for the flanking positions.
Despite all my rage, I am still just a rat in a cage...

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Ratman123
Clanrat
Ok,, thanks alot guys! :)
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Eshk
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Chieftain
Also, if you are taking them a ten-strong for flanking, remember that ranks are now counted after casualties are removed so if they lose even a single model (which is quite likely) they will no longer negate enemy ranks. So if you do go with flanking units, I would go 15-strong but then that starts getting pricey.
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Kariko83
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The lurker in the shadows
105pts for a unit of 15 isn't that expensive unless you compare it to slaves which can be more of a liability in the flank anyways.

Anyways I was the one that suggested that Stormvermin be taken in 10-15 rat flanking units. Since everyone seems to be plodding along twords big units of stormvermin I would like to direct people to the post I just made in the other Thread. It can be found Here as it explains my reasoning for the advice.
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Lidef Ostrac
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From Frissia with love
Stormvermin are now a lot better in a block, with their initiative 5, they'll strike first against 80% of their opponents with screaming bell and horde rule they are now a solid choice in my eyes

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Herrod


I'll be taking a block of Stormvermin rather then a couple of little units.

Herrod
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Patchy
Chieftain
30+ storm vermin!

i am planning on trying out a 40 man unit soon especially in larger games. So far i have found my storm vermin fairly untouched by the time combat hits. i think due to 40 man clan rats present and doomwheel etc. i think they are under rated by us and enemies alike. 8th will change that i am sure
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Kariko83
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The lurker in the shadows
Lidef Ostrac
Jul 5 2010, 04:43 AM
Stormvermin are now a lot better in a block, with their initiative 5, they'll strike first against 80% of their opponents with screaming bell and horde rule they are now a solid choice in my eyes

Initiative 5 actually helps more in the flank of units because you reduce the number of returning attacks to on rank and can potentially reduce the amount striking due to killing off a rank. In the fron, unless you hit a small unit, you will end up with 2 maybe 3 ranks striking back at you. Plus units get their 6+ parry ward save to the front and not to the side.

Now on the topic of the horde formation, I agree that above all the units in our army stormvermin make the best use of the horde formation. A horde with a bell is one of the first things I thought of when I read the rule but then I stepped back and reevaluated how good the grey seer on a bell was. The Grey seer on bell is really a sub optimal choice due to the changes to magic and true line of sight. I could spell this out more but that would be straying to much off topic.

I have a few questions for those just rattling off that you should take a large unit, have you tried them under 8th edition yet? Have you tried both the large unit and smaller flanking unit to see how they compare? Have you even played a game of 8th edition yet or are you just theoryhammering?

I know my answer to every one of these questions is yes and my advice comes from the experience gained through these games of 8th edition. The changes to combat has turned it into a grinding game when in combat to the front and stormvermin are not very good at that now.

I guess I just feel like no one is taking me seriously when I say that small flanking units are as effective or sometimes more effective than taking a big unit of them. I just don't want to see stormvermin relegated to a do not take unit when the unit dies in most games like they did in 6th edition.
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6th ed Skaven 8-3-0 7th ed skaven 6-1-0


13th Spell Times Cast: 8 Kill Counter: 14 Maraders, 38 Saurus warriors, 8 high elf bowmen, 20 Empire Handgunners and 14 Dwarf Handgunners

WIP Abomination Thread
Skaven in 7th ed: a WIP tactics article By Kariko83

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chieftainskritchskritch
 
Do you think, that every time a Plague Monk pees, he takes a S2 hit?
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SkavenDan
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I have tried small and big units in 8th non of what I say is theory hammer.

I can see where you are going with the hole flanking thing but you can get 20 clanrats for those points. If your argument point is the Init well nightrunner have a longer move cost the same and have more attacks.

Horde formation sucks.

I have run a unit of stormvermin into someones flank 40 strong. Generally I use the slaves as pinning units and while they butcher slaves and get no where the better units move into flanking positions.

So just to recap

I have a few questions for those just rattling off that you should take a large unit, have you tried them under 8th edition yet? Yes

Have you tried both the large unit and smaller flanking unit to see how they compare? Yes

Have you even played a game of 8th edition yet or are you just theoryhammering? Frankly this question is aimed at causing an argument I have had 7 games of 8th. And I think small units die to easy you get shot or charges and die.

The skaven are a swarm and they are ment to be played that way stormvermin are ok but there are many instances were you can get near as well the same performance out of clanrats. init 5 doesn't work well on all armies. And if you use nightrunners in there place you at least have throwing weapons to use if the oportunity presents it's self. Don't get me wrong in 8Th stormvermin are a competitive choice now for there S4 more than anything. But flanking isn't there strongest position a big unit with a good banner is good way to take them I always use Banner of dripping death.

Perhapes you could post your list in the army section? Most armies work as a hole so the debate about a single unit is a bit hard to gage your use of them.

I would be interesting in knowing how well it fared in 8Th and what you fielded.
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Kariko83
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The lurker in the shadows
I am glad to know that others have had a chance to try them in 8th edition but it is a bummer that they have not worked as well for you. My local gaming environment must be quite different than yours then as I mostly have run into a lot of warmachine heavy lists, both dwarf and empire, as well as DE, lizards and chaos. The large unit just turns into to much of a liability against them because of their points cost and tendency to have characters in them.

You have a very good point about the effectiveness of an army as a whole and I really haven't thought about that. I tend to go for target saturation with my lists and though I could do it easier with mass slaves I prefer things that can decently hit hard as well.

Anyways as you asked here is my current List I am using in 8th edition: 2000pt no magic 8th edition list

Final note, I am sorry for coming off as confrontational with my last post as it was not intentional.
Local Challenge board Record W-L-D
6th ed Skaven 8-3-0 7th ed skaven 6-1-0


13th Spell Times Cast: 8 Kill Counter: 14 Maraders, 38 Saurus warriors, 8 high elf bowmen, 20 Empire Handgunners and 14 Dwarf Handgunners

WIP Abomination Thread
Skaven in 7th ed: a WIP tactics article By Kariko83

Posted Image
chieftainskritchskritch
 
Do you think, that every time a Plague Monk pees, he takes a S2 hit?
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