| step up and plague censer bearers; step up will hurt censer bearers | ||
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| Tweet Topic Started: 17th May 2010 - 12:06 AM (2,665 Views) | ||
| spino | 25th May 2010 - 02:02 AM Post #16 | |
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Chieftain
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Well I hope that's not the case. Just granting an extra attack when charging seems a bit silly when you consider that frenzied troops would probably get just as worked up over an enemy unit charging their way instead of the other way around. They're already in a perpetual state of 'looking for the s--t' so should the s--t come looking for them you'd figure they'd begin frothing at the mouth and welcome the opportunity to let those heads they'd like to bash in move within 'bashing' range... If anything I'd deprive frenzied troops of that extra attack when they're being flanked (being caught off guard and all). I was also really happy to hear the news about the new monstrous/'ogre' class attack. Rat Ogres work pretty well right now but they're not nearly as versatile or cost effective as PCBs versus most armies. An extra 'crushing' attack would make ROs absolutely brutal (especially for the Masterbred champion). I also like not having to deal with the anxiety of taking the PCB gas tests every round. |
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| Kevlar | 25th May 2010 - 02:19 AM Post #17 | |
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Doomwheel Driver
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Isn't that just the 40k system? +1 attack on the charge, fight in initiative order? Pretty sure blood frenzy still gives +1 attack, but it has some negatives too, more than fantasy. | |
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| chieftainskritchskritch | 25th May 2010 - 03:22 AM Post #18 | |
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The Freshmaker
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And the much maligned death of the PCB. Dont get me wrong, I love my old 6th edition Rat Ogre models (Fluffly, Fifi and Truffles ) and would love to play them again, but I do fear that this will be the edition that finally sees the PCBs shelved. With units supposedly getting Stubborn (or a pseudo-form of Stubborn) if they have more ranks than the opposing unit, PCBs will now almost NEVER break a unit in CC (as they will still presumably lose their +2 Strength and Hatred after the first round of combat, which was basically their draw card for use). Combine this with the new "skirmishers dont have 360 LoS and have to sit on a crappy movement tray" rumour, and they're pretty much dead in the water.A shame, really. It makes me sad. My PCBs were pretty much my most valued unit in my army. Going to war without them will feel like my listed is naked to me. On the flip side, Rat Ogres will be able to go the distance in the new edition, being able to put out a decent amount of high Strength attacks over a protracted period of time, plus an additional "stomp" attack. Just watch out for Great Weapons! |
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| You kids these days have it so easy, what with your Plague Furnaces and your Hellpit Abominations and your Bonebreaker Warlords. Back in MY day, all we had was Slaves and Clanrats!...and auto-hit Ratling Guns...and skirmishing Jezzails...and 2D6 Warp Lightning...and Lead From The Back...wait, what was my arguement again? | ||
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| Typoko | 25th May 2010 - 06:02 AM Post #19 | |
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Clanrat
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Hi! Charge supposedly gives +1 to CR and not to attacks. Also the rumour states that you only get the stubborn if you have more ranks and are only engaged from the front. This means that if you get a flank attack with PCB you can still make them run like wussies. Also, you should note that eaven without the stubborn, PCB will be hit back if they attack a rnf from front. There will be atleast 2 ranks of attacks back to cause misery upon PCB. PS: Atleast these rumours are what i have read from the internets. |
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| spino | 25th May 2010 - 06:00 PM Post #20 | |
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Chieftain
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Ulf's post at Warseer seems to confirm that Frenzied troops always get an extra attack (unless of course they've lost a combat and therefore lose Frenzy). http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259481
Here's an interesting question... and I daresay a ray of hope... With the 'Step Up' rule doesn't it stand to reason that enemy models in the second rank which step up to take swings at a PCB should take a T test as well? I understand casualties are now taken from the back but it doesn't sound right that the PCB gas should only affect enemy troops in the front rank. I'm hoping GW is thinking the same thing because that would go a long way to maintaining the PCB's fearsome offensive power in 8th, especially since all combat will take place in order of Initiative. Obviously this might affect and any other tests that affect models in BTB like the Shroud of Dripping Death banner, Rival Hide Talisman and Shield of Distraction. *Praying this shows up in July's 8th Ed Skaven army errata* ![]() Mutate: Yeah, it's out there and rails against the rule of the current codex but most rules and items that deal with BTB issues were written and balanced for the old 'one rank only with few exceptions' system, not the upcoming 'two ranks' system. |
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| SkavenDan | 25th May 2010 - 06:44 PM Post #21 | |
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Doomwheel Fanatic
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No they wont because skirmishers wont negate ranks you need to have ranks to negate ranks the rumour is so there not great flankers. They are however still good flank protection they will still kill small heavily armoured units well. It's a smack down for sure but they still have there applications. |
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| Pestilent Lord | 25th May 2010 - 11:55 PM Post #22 | |
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Doomwheel Driver
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As opposed to in 7th, when they also don't negate ranks. Just need a good 5 kills to wipe out the 3 ranks, outnumber and banner. I've seen them do that many kills. |
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“A player is never late, Dave. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when the plot dictates he should.” Skaven 7th: W/L/D 6/5/2 High Elves: 2/3/1 | ||
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| Kevlar | 26th May 2010 - 02:20 AM Post #23 | |
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Doomwheel Driver
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They are still going to be useful. Its not so different than now. They will still be most effective hitting on a flank even if they don't negate rank bonus. Combined with a ranked unit hitting the enemy in the front all they do is tear #*&$ up. Granted rat darts and rat ogres will be much more effective than they are even now, but hey I think they are pretty good in this edition too. Greatly under utilized in most army lists I see. |
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| mrtn | 26th May 2010 - 10:54 AM Post #24 | |
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Swashbuckler
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I'm fairly sure that the PCB's were priced with these rule changes in mind. They'll still be good at killing stuff. | |
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Eight Chicky Bits, is that a Chicky Byte? Warhammer Fantasy Mod 2.5 for Civilization III Conquests My Southland Beastmen and Mortals Fingers are like onions, if you cut them, you cry Living by Stockholm Rude Time (GMT +1) Make your own Chaos Warrior My Skaven Army My Nurgling Army | ||
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| meowser | 20th June 2010 - 09:07 PM Post #25 | |
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Cantankerous Malefactor
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IMO: PCBs were overpowered in 7th, become mediocre in 8th - skirmish rules: - lose 360 LOS - lose conga line - one advantage: small units of 5" have a 7" frontage now, so against a horde unit you could cause 9 tests to while only taking 5... not bad - stepping up - hurts more than helps - no ASF on charge - really hurts - fight in 2 ranks - hurts more than helps, especially given a 2nd 'rank' only gives you 1 more attack net results: - arent's the no-brainer they were before - rat ogres, with I4, rank bonuses, 3A from 2nd rank, went from mediocre to competitive but not overpowered MUTATE: don't forget stomp/trample +1 A @ASL attack, new fear rules XD [ 6 ro, assuming attacks capped at 3 from rank 2, gives you, 7x3=21 WS3 S5 I4, & 3(6 if trample from 2nd rank) WS3 S5 ASL attacks) -- not too shabby, not even including master-bred -- IMO master moudler w/ GW is no longer worth it tho at least we didn't have to wait for 13th edition for RO's to get good but sadly i've suddenly lost the motivation to pin 10 more plastic PCB's
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In victory, thy glory on earth In death, thy glory in heaven Arise, therefore, Warrior With thy Soul ready to fight!
Looking to join a small, casual gaming crew in the tri-state area? PM me! | ||
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| FluffyZealot | 20th June 2010 - 11:31 PM Post #26 | |
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Clanrat
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Yes, they force toughness checks on every rank which can fight them. The errata was cleverly worded. ‘[…] all models fighting with a plague censer, and any model (friend and foe) in base contact with one or more models fighting with a plague censer, must take a Toughness test […] Translation: If you can hit me, take a toughness test. ![]() Note: This also applies to brettonian lances.. So in theory if they are fighting a horde (10 wide) of spearmen, who are fighting in 4 ranks, then you charge in 6 PCBs. You can contact 8 models which will force 32 toughness checks before combat. I can see them becoming a "horde bomb" even if you charge the larger units and don't win, you should be able to reduce their numbers sufficiently enough to clean them up with something else. You should be able to halve the number in an enemy unit in a T3 army, less and less though with T4+. So they're not dead, they're just not a hammer anymore. More a surgical weapon. PS. Don't bother attacking a flank with them, you need the step up to give you enough CR to win. ![]() |
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| Kevlar | 21st June 2010 - 12:13 AM Post #27 | |
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Doomwheel Driver
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I think you are mistaking a "plague censer" for a "plague censer bearer". They are not the same thing. The censer is a weapon wielded by our plague censer bearers. Any model fighting "with a plague censer" is just our guys, not anyone who can attack them. Models in base contact with models fighting "with a plague censer" (the weapon) is our second rank if one exists, and only the front rank of the enemy. Step up models and spearmen attacking in extra ranks or horde attacks will not test under that wording. |
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| Patchy | 21st June 2010 - 05:52 AM Post #28 | |
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Chieftain
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Come on PCB's were quite under costed. my 6 have charged plenty of infantry without heroes and made them break. 96 points against say 270 for 20 saurus or around the same for 15 chaos warriors. thats pretty close to being broken if i ever heard it... this hopefully will bring them done to being fair, im sure if it was a unit in a enemy army you would cry they are broken so you have to give a little when you have a broken unit in your own army. |
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| Assassin kill toll: 1 oldblood, 1 vampire lord, 2 chaos lords, Bretonnian lord, 3 Minotaurs and numerous champions with overkill. An ever growing list! | ||
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| meowser | 21st June 2010 - 02:48 PM Post #29 | |
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Cantankerous Malefactor
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I think this idea that you will force PC tests on enemies in the 2nd (or 3rd, etc) rank is pure wishful thinking. | |
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In victory, thy glory on earth In death, thy glory in heaven Arise, therefore, Warrior With thy Soul ready to fight!
Looking to join a small, casual gaming crew in the tri-state area? PM me! | ||
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| jamano | 21st June 2010 - 10:24 PM Post #30 | |
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Clanrat
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the main problem with them now is they won't be able to break any infantry units because they'll all have more than 0 ranks and be stubborn, and they're terrible in the second round. So they are only good against the kind of units people won't be fielding anymore (10 man units of elite infantry) | |
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) and would love to play them again, but I do fear that this will be the edition that finally sees the PCBs shelved. With units supposedly getting Stubborn (or a pseudo-form of Stubborn) if they have more ranks than the opposing unit, PCBs will now almost NEVER break a unit in CC (as they will still presumably lose their +2 Strength and Hatred after the first round of combat, which was basically their draw card for use). Combine this with the new "skirmishers dont have 360 LoS and have to sit on a crappy movement tray" rumour, and they're pretty much dead in the water.



but sadly i've suddenly lost the motivation to pin 10 more plastic PCB's 