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Skaven FAQ Out; 2010
Topic Started: 8th March 2010 - 03:47 PM (8,413 Views)
FleshCollector


eudaimon
Mar 10 2010, 02:28 AM
Kevlar
Mar 9 2010, 06:41 PM
Eshk
Mar 9 2010, 05:23 PM

That's actually not how it works in fantasy though. In the rulebook, it states that if a character is in a unit of US5+, he can't be hit by shooting as it is all done to the unit. But the problem is that it doesn't mention if he takes hits if the entire unit gets wiped out. Since it says he is immune to shooting in a unit and doesn't mention otherwise, I think we have to assume that if a character is in a unit of 10 RnF and they suffer 13 wounds, they all die and the character is still left standing there.

Since that is how it works for shooting and the FAQ says the 13th spell works like shooting, it would follow that characters of any US are immune to the effects.

Are you sure? I thought after the 8th wound you would start randomizing the wounds between the character and the unit.

Esk is right with what he says about shooting, as long as there are 5 RnF, characters are safe from shooting.

However, i disagree, for reasons given earlier, about characters in a unit subject to the 13th (though I appreciate both points of view and am willing to be moved on the matter).

There are 2 effects of the 13th, to cause casulaties (if you do not kill enough) and to remove the unit and replace with clanrats (if you do kill enough). As soon as you roll equal to or above the number of models in the unit, including characters, the causing casualties ceases to apply (and thus the allocated as shooting ceases to apply) and the unit is removed and turned to clanrats, characters and all.

Some here are surly lawyers or would make damn good ones as the value of a comma placement is divined to completely twist the most simple and clear of written answers.

As we know, Curse of the Horned Rat casualties are distributed as shooting.

As we know by reading pg 74 of the BRB, characters of any unit strength less than 5 are completely immune "when in a unit that includes at least five rank and file models" as "any shots against the unit will hit ordinary troopers and not the character."

After defining how those shooting hits are distributed when there are less than 5 RnF, we discover exactly what happens to a character model which is itself Unit Strength 5 or more and that the character may be targeted individually or "picked out as a target regardless of the rules just given." Either the unit or the character in this case may be shot.

The FAQ answer is clear and consistent with what the BRB states and provides an orderly and concise response to that consistent affect:

Answer" The casualties are distributed as hits from shooting. If the unit includes characters, just follow the normal rules for shooting hits against such units. "

Now our lawyer rats are arguing that the next sentence provides an exception to the first two sentences of the answer when in fact it is a reminder of what is already stated in the BRB and is completely consistent: "However, if the characters in the unit are Unit Strength 5 or more, they are not affected by the spell at all and casualties will fall amongst other models in the unit (just imagine that the characters are not there).

This clarification and reminder points out that there is indeed a difference between character models of less than US5 and those greater than US5 while explicitly stating that US5 characters are not affected IF the rat player wanted to target the US5 character as under the normal shooting rules the US5 character could be targeted while inside the unit. Simple, short and sweet; something we all complain about wanting but still can't recognize it when it happens.

Finally, the last sentence clarifies what happens to those characters when the entire unit is destroyed: "If the unit is destroyed by the spell, the player controlling the characters must place them anywhere 1" away from the newly formed Clanrats, facing in any direction." Now we know what happens to the characters when their unit is destroyed.

This FAQ answer was crafted to answer 3 questions and succeeded quite admirably. What this debate stems from is folks seeing what they want to see rather than what is while imagining that through a cunning emphasis on "however" with a well placed comma, we can change the meaning as intended and argue it in the court of public opinion. As one affected by the warpstone seeping from these walls, I cannot help but suspect a deliberate and lame attempt at misrepresenting GW's intent for their own advantage.
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Warlock Matik
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(Z–>)90º – (E–N²W)90ºt = 1

Oh my Horned Rat, it's happening again! Just with a different rule. Can't grey seers ever catch a break? :P
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Mahtobedis
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Warlord
I think the intent, in the case of a unit with a character or champion, is that you remove it down to unit strength 5 and then start rolling for distribution, just like if you had just targeted the unit with a crap tone of shooting.
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QueekQueek
Grey Seer
Mahtobedis
Mar 11 2010, 11:00 AM
I think the intent, in the case of a unit with a character or champion, is that you remove it down to unit strength 5 and then start rolling for distribution, just like if you had just targeted the unit with a crap tone of shooting.

so in essence, this makes the spell slightly more powerful, as you don't even need to be able to wipe out the unit to kill a character. 20 models, 1 is a character. After 15 deaths, the 16th could potentially kill the character without wiping out the entire unit.

MUTATE::: correction: in said scenario, you start rolling after 14 deaths, as now there are only 5 RnF and 1 character, if I'm not mistaken.
The best laid plans of mice-men often go astray...
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CapAmr05
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Quote:
 
Q. If a unit is affected by the Curse of the Horned
Rat and not entirely destroyed, who choses which
models are removed as casualties?
A. The player controlling the affected unit.
Normally, characters and champions are more
resilient than normal rank-and-files to the mutating
effects of the Curse.


Not when coupled with this FAQ. The character of US less than 5 will (almost always, depending on your opponent) be the last victim to fall to the spell before you lay down the clanrats.

And for those of the 'characters are immune' persuasion, please note,

resilient =/= immune

--Cap
Lonewolf Grand Tournament April 28-30

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Clan Skrittar
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Bobtailmaneater
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IronShark
Mar 8 2010, 11:35 AM
One big surprise is the US3(4) Rat Ogre bonebreaker. That's a significant and unexpected boost. Look Out Sir and can't be picked out? US3 Warlitter also nice, no killing blow (KB only works on US2 and less).

YES! I am so psyched now to do a modelling conversion/sculpting project and build me one! :D :D :D
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Bobtailmaneater
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CapAmr05
Mar 8 2010, 02:04 PM
Quote:
 
And what's the reason for still taking a war-litter now?


The litter is unkillable, and adds +1 armor for cheaper. I think I still prefer it to the Bonebreaker.

--Cap

Is there a thread that really debates this? I would love to see some hard math-hammer type numbers making a comparison. I mean, 5 Str 5 attacks...and T5 W4...not to mention I FINALLY get to use a Rat Ogre in my army and not feel like I am sacrificing combat effectiveness for fluff!

I know this isn't the thread for this, but I don't recall a serious discussion of the issue (especially since at the time I may have over looked it, thinking that the ROBB mount was going to cost me my LOS! roll).
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CapAmr05
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Quote:
 
Is there a thread that really debates this?


Right when the book first came out, but then it was based on the notions of LoS and US5, etc. I haven't seen one since the corrections/clarifications have been made, care to start one?

--Cap
Lonewolf Grand Tournament April 28-30

The Beer Phase Podcast

Clan Skrittar
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Bobtailmaneater
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Pestilent Lord
Mar 8 2010, 05:05 PM
Fwum
Mar 8 2010, 04:56 PM
On the question of censor bearers, the first page of the errata states that

Quote:
 
All models fighting with a plague censor, and any model (friend or foe) in base contact with one or more models fighting with a plague censer must take a toughness test.


Does this mean that the second rank of a unit engaging censor bearers would also have to take a test, as they are in base contact with the first rank that is fighting the censors? That would be ridiculous.

It means precisely that. <snip>

I don't read it that way. The FAQ says that "any model (friend or foe) in base contact with one or more models fighting with a plague censer must take a toughness test."

This means that a model fighting against the PCB has to test and the PCB himself has to test. But models fighting in the second rank are not in base contact with anyone fighting "with" a PCB. They are in base contact with someone fighting AGAINST a PCB. Therefore they do not have to take a test.

::Mutate::: Sorry - I see that this has already been adequately debated here and the consensus agrees with me. Sorry to "beat a dead horse" :blush:
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Bobtailmaneater
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Grey Seer
CapAmr05
Mar 12 2010, 11:20 AM
Quote:
 
Is there a thread that really debates this?


Right when the book first came out, but then it was based on the notions of LoS and US5, etc. I haven't seen one since the corrections/clarifications have been made, care to start one?

--Cap

Consider it done! :P
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Kevlar
Doomwheel Driver
Bobtailmaneater
Mar 8 2010, 05:05 PM

This means that a model fighting against the PCB has to test and the PCB himself has to test.  But models fighting in the second rank are not in base contact with anyone fighting "with" a PCB.  They are in base contact with someone fighting AGAINST a PCB.  Therefore they do not have to take a test.

::Mutate::: Sorry - I see that this has already been adequately debated here and the consensus agrees with me.  Sorry to "beat a dead horse" :blush:

Yep, how it has always been in every previous edition. The only "2nd rank" that has to test is the 2nd rank of censer bearers, which is why they are best fielded in small single rank units.

And big surprise, friendly models wounded by gas count against you for CR, not towards you as some esteemed rules esquires were trying to litigate.
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IronShark
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Warlord
Kevlar
Mar 12 2010, 04:19 PM
Yep, how it has always been in every previous edition.

Actually, 2 editions ago, they dropped templates if I recall correctly.
No battle plan survives contact with Clan Skryre.
-Lord Pox
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Kevlar
Doomwheel Driver
IronShark
Mar 12 2010, 04:42 PM
Kevlar
Mar 12 2010, 04:19 PM
Yep, how it has always been in every previous edition.

Actually, 2 editions ago, they dropped templates if I recall correctly.

Nah that was the globadiers. The cencers I'm pretty sure work like they always did. Except that hatred previously gave them all their leadership tests on an unmodified 10.

Oh they did get -2 to be shot at due to the gas cloud and the skirmish rule. Miss that.
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IronShark
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Warlord
Looking in my old book, the PCB's hit everyone within 1", so they'd hit 2 ranks in their original incarnation. But those were also the days of blast template PWGs, Verminlord with S8, T7, etc...
No battle plan survives contact with Clan Skryre.
-Lord Pox
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The MexiMan
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Stormvermin
Got a question,

The FAQ stated that the Doomwhell does not need LOS to charge a unit, so does that mean that I don't need to declare a charge and I just decide after I roll if I want to charge something or just move normally.
THE REAL MexiMan
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