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Skaven FAQ Out; 2010
Topic Started: 8th March 2010 - 03:47 PM (8,417 Views)
Dugoar
Clanrat
Lord Pox
Mar 8 2010, 05:40 PM
PL is right, and it's not particularly ridiculous.
The plague censer bearers in combat will test. So will the enemies in base contact with them. So will friendly models in base to base contact with them.

The point is that they are emitting a gas cloud when swung in combat, which will affect both the wielder and anyone touching him.

The change is that ranked up models will not test outside of combat. Otherwise it's the same as before.

Right but Fwum was initially asking about the second rank of the enemy making a test.
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Pestilent Lord
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Doomwheel Driver
Models wielding plague censers that are in combat with an enemy test. Models that are in contact with a model wielding a censer also test. The second rank is touching the first rank, so the second rank does have to test.

MUTATE:
Quote:
 
QUOTE (Lord Pox @ Mar 8 2010, 05:40 PM)
PL is right, and it's not particularly ridiculous.
The plague censer bearers in combat will test. So will the enemies in base contact with them. So will friendly models in base to base contact with them.

The point is that they are emitting a gas cloud when swung in combat, which will affect both the wielder and anyone touching him.

The change is that ranked up models will not test outside of combat. Otherwise it's the same as before.

Right but Fwum was initially asking about the second rank of the enemy making a test.

LOL, yeah now this confusion makes sense. I thought he was asking if the second rank of censors needed to test.
“A player is never late, Dave. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when the plot dictates he should.”
Skaven 7th:
W/L/D
6/5/2
High Elves:
2/3/1
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brave sir Robin
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If this was on Facebook I'd 'love' it...

Well done Games Workshop, I genuinly think you've got nearly everything perfect second time around, shame it almost took half a year on something that should have been perfect first time around.

BSR
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Ratarsed
Grey Seer
mariote
Mar 8 2010, 05:18 PM
Pestilent Lord
Mar 8 2010, 05:05 PM
Quote:
 
All models fighting with a plague censor, and any model (friend or foe) in base contact with one or more models fighting with a plague censer must take a toughness test.



All models fighting with a plague censor, and any model (friend or foe) in base contact with one or more models fighting with a plague censer bearer must take a toughness test.

It means precisely that.

Check the FAQ again. It does not say plague censer bearer as you highlighted on bold text but just "plague censer"

What it means is any model fighting with a plague censer (ie has one in their hand and bashing the enemy with it) takes a test.
And any model in base contact with a model fighting with a plague censer (ie in base contact with a model wielding a plague censer) takes a test.

So basicaly just as nearly everyone has been playing already.

Ratarsed
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Lord Pox
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Plague Priest
Dugoar
Mar 8 2010, 11:42 PM
Right but Fwum was initially asking about the second rank of the enemy making a test.

So he was :D

That would be ridiculous.

Consensus achieved, moving on . . . ^_^
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scrivener
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*toot*

We have been vindicated!! *bsb* *bsb* *bsb*

*does a dance*
hannanibal
 
*Angry mob assembles*

"WHAT DO WE WANT!!??"
"A THINNISH, WATERY PAINT WITH A GREENER TINGE THAN AGRAX EARTHSHADE!!"
"WHEN DO WE WANT IT!?"
"QUITE SOON PLEASE AS MY LAST POT IS RUNNING OUT!"
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Eshk
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Chieftain
CapAmr05
Mar 8 2010, 04:45 PM
It says replace the entire unit, the only point at which they talk about placing a character 1" away is when the US5+ slips in.

US5+ is immune to CotHR

US<4Characters (from what I've read) still appear to be subject to the effects.

If a unit of 20 (19 + character) takes 22 casualties all models should be replace; unless that character happens to be US5+

Quote:
 
However, if the characters in the unit are Unit Strength 5 or more, they are not affected by the spell at all and casualties will fall amongst other models in the unit (just imagine the characters are not there). If the unit is destroyed by the spell, the player controlling the characters must place them anwhere 1" away fomr the newly formed Clanrats, facing in any direction.


--Cap

I know that's what the FAQ says, but that is what confuses me. Because it also refers to the shooting rules in the BRB which contradict the FAQ.

This bit:
"The casualties are distributed as hits from
shooting. If the unit includes characters, just follow
the normal rules for shooting hits against such
units."

So if you look up shooting at units with characters in the rulebook, it states that characters that are <US5 in units that are US5 (so a normal character in a normal unit) can't be hit by shooting. It's the same reason a warlord on warlitter can't be picked out from the unit. So I'm confused as to why the FAQ would assert one thing but the BRB seems to say another.
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UnderTheEarth
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Grey Seer Scabrac
Well, the army book, and of course the FAQ, always trump the BRB
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SiliconSicilian
Grey Seer
Sniskrak
Mar 8 2010, 03:45 PM
Lord Lughtigern
Mar 8 2010, 11:30 AM
Prints_Seer_Nook
Mar 8 2010, 07:13 PM
They have missed one of the big ones.

Dreaded 13th Spell on infantry unit with mounted character in it.  :blink:

They might've answered it when you weren't looking!

Final page
 
Q. How are casualties from the Curse of the Horned Rat distributed? Can characters in a unit of 5 or more rank and file models be harmed? What if they are mounted on a steed or monster?

A. The casualties are distributed as hits from shooting. If the unit includes characters, just follow the normal rules for shooting hits against such units. However, if the characters in the unit are Unit Strength 5 or more, they are not affected by the spell at all and casualties will fall amongst other models in the unit (just imagine the characters are not there). If the unit is destroyed by the spell, the player controlling the characters must place them anwhere 1" away fomr the newly formed Clanrats, facing in any direction.

I still cannot figure out exactly what they meant by that answer. It sounds like the character is just gonna be left standing there, 1" away. But it could also mean that if you roll high enough to take out the entire unit and the character, he becomes a rat. I did look at the brb rules for shooting at a character in a unit, and it didn't help very much... But I also have an older version of the brb, so it could have been changed in more recent versions.

He will turn into a rat because he is not US5.
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CapAmr05
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You're mixing the three questions:

Question:
How are casualties from the Curse of the
Horned Rat distributed?

Can characters in a unit
of 5 or more rank and file models be harmed?
What if they are mounted on a steed or monster?


Answer:

The casualties are distributed as hits from
shooting.
If the unit includes characters, just follow
the normal rules for shooting hits against such
units.
However, if the characters in the unit are Unit
Strength 5 or more, they are not affected by the
spell at all and casualties will fall amongst other
models in the unit (just imagine the characters are
not there). If the unit is destroyed by the spell, the
player controlling the characters must place them
anywhere 1” away from the newly formed Clanrats,
facing in any direction.


Cap's Answer to Example Dictionary? (I hope :( )
This would imply that casualties are distributed as shooting, obviously the roll has to be less than the total # of models, otherwise the result would be entirely wiped out.

Same as the blue section, if not enough casualties are caused to wipe the unit out the characters are uneffected above all others; say a unit of 10 (9 plus character) took 8 casualties, the character would live and the opposing player would get to select the banner, champ or mus as the other survivor (unless I geuss, if they really wanted to off their own character instead? as per the other Q&A?). If the entire unit is wiped out, they're gone, all of them, no survivors

US5+ Models are immune to CotHR and If the unit is entirely wiped out the large character would be placed within 1". Specifically stating a US5 character is immune leaves the other characters are fair game, otherwise, why no just simply say 'Characters are immune', they typically go for the shortest most concise answers on these things.

--Cap
Lonewolf Grand Tournament April 28-30

The Beer Phase Podcast

Clan Skrittar
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Decker_cky
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Master of the Deamonic Leash of Numbers and the Armor of Updates

1.) US5+ character:
However, if the characters in the unit are Unit Strength 5 or more, they are not affected by the spell at all and casualties will fall amongst other models in the unit (just imagine the characters are not there).

2.) Character of US less than 5 (unit not destroyed)
The casualties are distributed as hits from shooting. If the unit includes characters, just follow the normal rules for shooting hits against such units.

3.) Any character in a destroyed unit:
If the unit is destroyed by the spell, the player controlling the characters must place them anywhere 1” away from the newly formed Clanrats, facing in any direction.

And further to all that...when there's a question about how the casualties are distributed (only applicable to characters in Case 2):

Q. If a unit is affected by the Curse of the Horned
Rat and not entirely destroyed, who choses which
models are removed as casualties?
A. The player controlling the affected unit.
Normally, characters and champions are more
resilient than normal rank-and-files to the mutating
effects of the Curse.

US5+ characters are immune.

Characters are immune if the unit is destroyed.

In other cases, distribute as shooting.

What this really means is that if there's multiple characters in a unit of less than 5 rank and file models, you could have up to the entire unit, minus one character turned into clanrats.
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chieftainskritchskritch
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The Freshmaker

Overall I love the FAQ, but my only gripe (and going AGAINST what everyone else has said) is that the Bonebreaker Warlord isnt US5. I wanted to break ranks on a flank charge dammit!!! :P

Also, seeing as its WAY early here and im half asleep, Im assuming everyone is liking this cause the Bonebreaker cant be picked out of units now? Is that correct? And is it only US 5+ models that can be sniped from units?
You kids these days have it so easy, what with your Plague Furnaces and your Hellpit Abominations and your Bonebreaker Warlords. Back in MY day, all we had was Slaves and Clanrats!...and auto-hit Ratling Guns...and skirmishing Jezzails...and 2D6 Warp Lightning...and Lead From The Back...wait, what was my arguement again?
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Sleboda
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Well, the thing is here.

I like it and am happy to have it.

As Owen points out, there's A TON of stuff they opted to ignore, but some's bett'r 'n none (our standards are, after all, conditioned to be very, very low).

Here are my thoughts on it:

With the doomwheel movement answer, you can effectively move any distance up to the amount rolled, including zero. Go forward 1/100th of an inch, turn around, go 1/100th of an inch, and so on. I like not having to be shot of in some direction. Roll the dice, see if it benefits me to go somewhere, and, if not, stay where I am.

Only Censers that are "fighting" (and those touching them) roll. This is a nice balance with "every round" rolling. Keep those bearers who are on the periphery safe.

WFT into slave combats. Yes! No int(rnd(x)*10) to deal with!

It will be interesting to see how many changes come in 8th. For instance, the reason for partials is fluffed as the power of warpstone. If all templates are this way in 8th, it will weaken that answer.

Is there actually a rule prohibiting multiple champions in one unit? If not, the rat ogre champ rule is cool.

Unintended Can Of Worms: "As for ALL conversions...base size..." Soooo, I can make a converted giant and put it on a cav base or a converted tomb king "scorpion king" and put it on a 40? Hmmmm....

The whole thing had a minimum of condescension (with notable exceptions like - "Bell - Why would you do that?").

Some things that should be errata (characters not leaving the bell unit after start of game, furnace billow after march, dwarf bane only in HtH) are not, but hey.

Some answers are needless (best to roll bell before casting...um, you actually have to roll before casting, so now people might think it's only optional to roll then).

Some great middle ground answers such as 5-wide slaves. This is cool as it does not screw the unit that gets flanked, but disallows congas.

Some frivolous fluff (monks channel energies is why the furnace has "only" 7 attacks as a result of frenzy).

Can of worms with "note that this answer covers everything...." in response to weirdo HtH casualties. What about stuff in other lists? I thought FAQ answers were specific.

Some things they should have been more bold on or made into errata. "Yes, that is a reasonable solution" when it should have just been an errata that covered it. Same on US and conversion base sizes.

A nice nod to not letting us know intent better "...this was intended to make them more freely available..." on unit champ magic items, as if to say they did not communicate this well (could have said "...this is because they are more freely available...").

Interesting Doomrocket implication - It can now be fired into a combat since it is "simply fired in a nominated direction" as opposed to at a target unit. If you do this, is it like the expendable rule in that it does not affect models it does not touch?
Can you march and shoot it? I say no, but the unexpected answer to the question that did not actually need to be asked about the Furnace shooting on the march opens things up to all sorts of "clearly this would be against the rules, but can I do X?"

Some things are totally made up (as far as reasoning) like Slinking Advance only with Eshin. I would not have even asked. The answer is not one that could have been reached in any event, without studio invention.

Talk about wishy washy!
Cracks call shot "fits the rulebook definition of...." as justification for why characters get Look Out Sir!, yet another "fits the RB def" is the bell/furnace as monster, and it's not. Wow, sure would like consistency so we could anticipate our own answers!

13th spell rendered nutless by the presence of a champion since they are treated as characters for shooting. 6 regulars and a champ take 20 casualties from spell, and the champ cannot be affected and thus the unit is not converted to clanrats.

I also think that the ruling on this spell makes it much less worth the 25 to cast. If all it takes is a character or champ to protect the unit, I can't see myself trying to use it. I've won two games by turning characters into clanrats. Not anymore.

All in all...a good start. Now I can at least have confidence on many issues I could not previously.

Thank you GW.

For the record, the biggest controversies they answered went as I expected (and posted to that effect). I thought they would rule on ejection as they did and unit magic items as they did. My arguments here have always been based on what IS rather than what I want. The fact that the answers were obvious to some does not mean any of us was "right" until now. I mean, who would have even thought to ask about the furnace shooting after it marched? Obviously, it cannot. That's basic stuff. However, GW ruled agains themselves and gave us something nice. THAT'S why it is worth debating the "obvious."
True scholars have more than just one book to study.
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Skreetz the Fabricator
Skyre warlock/converter
chieftainskritchskritch
Mar 8 2010, 06:31 PM
Overall I love the FAQ, but my only gripe (and going AGAINST what everyone else has said) is that the Bonebreaker Warlord isnt US5. I wanted to break ranks on a flank charge dammit!!! :P

Also, seeing as its WAY early here and im half asleep, Im assuming everyone is liking this cause the Bonebreaker cant be picked out of units now? Is that correct? And is it only US 5+ models that can be sniped from units?

I dont really want to start hunting this down ATM, but it says the bonebreaker is a monstrous mount, so wouldn't that mean he is a monster? And if so wouldn't he be US 5? The FAQ never actually says "It is US 5," but something more along the lines of "It could be US 5."

You could probably hunt down all the rules and make a good case for most game groups.
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Decker_cky
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Master of the Deamonic Leash of Numbers and the Armor of Updates
Interesting with the champ on the Curse there Sleboda...but my interpretation is that the champ is considered a character for the purpose of shooting, so the unit is destroyed but the champ goes 1" away as per characters. You still get a unit of clanrats from it.

There's nothing in there saying a unit isn't destroyed if there's a character.
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