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| Clanrats - no longer worth it? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 29th December 2009 - 12:29 AM (922 Views) | |
| chieftainskritchskritch | 29th December 2009 - 12:29 AM Post #1 |
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The Freshmaker
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Greetings fellow ratmen, And so, as the last days of 2009 slowly draw to a close, so too does the Age of the Rat. A prosperous time when Skaven ruled the lands with arcane sorceries and powerful engines of war, ended by the machinations of one man: Jeremy Vetock ... Ok, this isnt another Jeremy Vetock rant (though sometimes I have dreams where I get to tell him how bad the new Skaven army book really is, and he cries. Sweet, sweet dreams.....), but rather to throw out a controversial thought that I had the other night, lying in bed and unable to sleep. Clanrats.....are no longer worth their place in the army book. And they should be replaced with Giant Rats. DUN DUN DUUUUUNNN!!!!! Now, before I get my expected flaming, id just like to point out my reasoning behind this: With the coming of 7th edition, static combat resolution is a faded memory. A shadow of its former glory when you could win combats without inflicting a single casualty. No, nowadays most opposing units have enough high strength attacks to totally negate our beloved 3 ranks + standard + outnumber, and as a result the humble Clanrat finds himself besieged. So, with that in mind, lets take a look at the supposed benefits of taking Clanrat units: * Static combat res of 5 * Armour saves of 5+/4+ * High leadership (Ld 8) * Can take a weapon team Now, as ive pointed out, static res doesnt cut the mustard anymore. Even standard infantry are gaining access to lots of high strength attacks nowadays, meaning that the Clanrat static res of 5 is no longer worthwhile (and lets face it, your Clanrats arent actually going to kill anything to increase this number). So, you're now getting into a situation where you win combat by very little and are forced into a "grinder" scenario (ie: your opponent loses by 1 or 2, has a high enough Ld to not care, and forces you to fight subsequent rounds of combat where you get your rank bonus whittled down) or else you actually lose by a couple of points and pack in the fight. Add to this that, if you lose and your opponent captures your banner, you've giving away a pretty sum in victory points. Now on to armour saves. Sure, on paper a 5+/4+ save is pretty decent. However, this doesnt take into account how easily this is modified downwards. Take shooting for instance: anything that isnt a bow will probably be Strength 4+. This is turning your 5+ save into at least a 6+. Negligable unless you roll obscene amounts of 6's. The same can be said for the 4+ combat save. A Strength 4+ enemy puts your save back at 5+ or worse. Again, this could be counted as negligable, as you probably wont make very many of these saves (and lets be honest, hardly any combats are ever one by you making 1 or 2 armour saves). Next is the high Leadership. Sure, this is all very good, in fact I cant fault it. But I will explain later on that it could be better. Finally, the weapon teams. Now, you COULD look at this as a bonus, but I however do not. The general meh factor of the weapon teams (ooh eck, a template weapon that wounds on a 5+? Be still my beating heart!) combined with the fact that anything that isnt a slave is a special little snowflake and cant be shot at in combat, I believe that points could be spent better elsewhere. And anyway, massed unit firepower will still put a weapon team down, even WITh its 4+ ward save as they only have 1 wound (think brettonian bowmen. They'll nearly earn their points back by firing at a warpfire thrower!). Now that thats out of the way, lets dissect the Giant Rat: * Cheaper than clanrat units of same size * Faster * More attacks * Higher Leadership (potentially 9) Cost wise, a unit of 20 giant rats and 5 packmasters comes in at 100pts even. a unit of 25 Clanrats (unupgraded) will also equal 100pts. However, as you'll probably want upgrades like shields, standards, etc, the Clanrat unit will set you back further points. Please note that you'll also benefit from the normal 3 ranks + outnumber that the clanrats benefit from. Giant rats have M6, compared to the M5 of Clanrats. Enough said, really. Giant rats attack in 2 ranks. This equates to 10 S3 attacks from the giant rats, plus 5 S3 attacks from the packmasters (when deployed 5 wide). Compare this to the paltry 5 attacks of the generic Clanrat unit, and you can see that the Giant rats put out triple the amount of attacks than the Clanrats. Who knows? You may actually kill something! Leadership. The master moulder (the giant rat unit champion) is a mighty Ld 6. Combine this with the 3 ranks of the giant rats and your looking at a Ld 9 unit. To top this off, you can equip your master moulder with pretty, pretty topys to increase his combat potential, giving you a better chance of killing something in a fight (as compared to Clanrats, who have only to rely on their WS and bent, broken swords). And so, after that lengthy post, I have to ask the reader: do you agree or disagree? Do these points make sense to you? Flame away! |
| You kids these days have it so easy, what with your Plague Furnaces and your Hellpit Abominations and your Bonebreaker Warlords. Back in MY day, all we had was Slaves and Clanrats!...and auto-hit Ratling Guns...and skirmishing Jezzails...and 2D6 Warp Lightning...and Lead From The Back...wait, what was my arguement again? | |
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| carcharoth | 29th December 2009 - 12:39 AM Post #2 |
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Slayer of Lizardmen
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i think you have a fair point, but i wouldnt say clanrats arent worth it, so much as they're not the strongest core option out there. giant rats and slaves are both a better value, but clanrats do have a superior ability to hold in combaton account of their banner and armour. i'll still take them, becuase they're in character for skaven and going without them just seems wrong. |
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| reddogfish77 | 29th December 2009 - 01:13 AM Post #3 |
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Grey Seer
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why dont you charge a unit of giant rats at a unit of clanrats and see who wins.... i like the clanrats but i also use my weapon teams differently... i like the doomflayer and the WFT. put the warpfire thrower behind a unit of slaves but close to parent and when you flee with your slaves you will have one good shot with WFT... then your opponent will either charge it in which case you stand and shoot or they shoot at it instead of something else... either way with one good shot your WFT should make up for its point cost and it might even panic the thing that charged the slaves... also it is far less suseptible to things like cannons with its ward save. the doomflayer is good used just behind your lines... but so that it still has line of sight to the front. with a hellpit abomb and a SB my doomflayers are not generally the first target my opponenet aims for. also i would rather slaves than giant rats... shooting at them and them not causng panic are there best features... still.... lol. |
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| chieftainskritchskritch | 29th December 2009 - 02:03 AM Post #4 |
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The Freshmaker
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Point for point, a unit of Giant Rats WILL beat a unit of Clanrats of the same value: 20 x Giant rats + 5 packmasters = 100pts 25 x Clanrats unupgraded = 100pts Clanrats throw out 5 S3 attacks. Giant rats and packmasters throw out 15 S3 attacks. Both sides have 3+ ranks. Clanrats get a 6+ save. Giant rats win. Even if you were to go and pay the points for shields and banner for the clanrats, I still like the odds on the giant rats (especially if you pay the cost of a master moulder and take an electro whip or something ).
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| You kids these days have it so easy, what with your Plague Furnaces and your Hellpit Abominations and your Bonebreaker Warlords. Back in MY day, all we had was Slaves and Clanrats!...and auto-hit Ratling Guns...and skirmishing Jezzails...and 2D6 Warp Lightning...and Lead From The Back...wait, what was my arguement again? | |
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| throtstillsux:( | 29th December 2009 - 02:22 AM Post #5 |
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Stormvermin
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First off, a unit of 20 giant rats can only have four masters (1 per 5), they don't count for core requirements, and without a banner a unit cannot claim quarters. I'm not saying the poster of this post does not have a point, I'm just pointing out some things that need to be mentioned. But yes, regular rank'n'file, which the skaven are full of (why in the name of god are night runners not skirmishers anymore!?) get destroyed these days without doing anything much else besides giving the opponent 100 extra victory points. I once had a dark elf lord on a dragon role up my whole army despite all my ranks and numbers and the fact that I had taken out the greater part of his army through the meticulous placement of my ratling guns. Grrr. Used to be that no matter how scary a giant monster was, it could never beat a fully ranked unit by itself. |
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| chieftainskritchskritch | 29th December 2009 - 02:29 AM Post #6 |
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The Freshmaker
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Oh, my mistake there. Yes I did misrepresent the packmasters by 1, so they get 14 attacks in total. Still pretty good though. And a unit CAN claim quarters without banners. The only stipulation is that they be US 5+. If this wasnt the case, monsters like dragons, hydras and the majority of the Undead armies (I almost never see banners in a vampire counts army) wouldnt be such a problem. Alas, the days of the ratling gun and RnF beating monsters are behind us. Welcome to MonsterGunLineHammer (tm), where games are won or lost on the backs of artillery and fantastical beasts, not the combined efforts of blocks of scared little men... |
| You kids these days have it so easy, what with your Plague Furnaces and your Hellpit Abominations and your Bonebreaker Warlords. Back in MY day, all we had was Slaves and Clanrats!...and auto-hit Ratling Guns...and skirmishing Jezzails...and 2D6 Warp Lightning...and Lead From The Back...wait, what was my arguement again? | |
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| throtstillsux:( | 29th December 2009 - 02:34 AM Post #7 |
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Stormvermin
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Ah, my mistake, I generally don't buy the rulebooks, so am always a little unreliable when it comes to such things. Anyway, it seems we agree Monstergunlinehammer indeed.
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| Decker_cky | 29th December 2009 - 03:15 AM Post #8 |
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Master of the Deamonic Leash of Numbers and the Armor of Updates
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What a contrived example to put giant rats as better. Clanrats take a banner, musician and shield 100% of the time. If you don't take those, then no, clanrats aren't going to be worth it. But while static CR is 'dead'...skaven still depend on it to win. Giant rats are great support units, but they don't fill the role used by clanrats. |
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| DNA Maniac | 29th December 2009 - 04:06 AM Post #9 |
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Stormvermin
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ok so first 25+5giant rats=115 if w/msm 140pts (20+5 is not allowed) 24 full clanrats=128 so 15 attacks againest 6attacks with 4+armor save. 1,8kills to clan rats avarage 1,5kills to giant rats avarage so lets say giants killed 2 and clanrats killed one. +1banner its a tie, and musician. so gianrats are broken by 1. it is a good point you say but there is no big difference. Because static is less usefull but what is worse is having a lower static when eweryone got some... plus try doomflyers or ratling guns for cheaper solutions.(doomflyer FTW!) and clanrats can always have a bsb. u can say it is not for eachother u think about. so try them againest dwarf warriors or DE warriors. you will find out clanrats are still better and a doomflyer can break them. and yes your armor will still work. and the real problem of giant rats that any shooting will kill them. thats not really important but packmasters will die with 6+sv so extra attacks will begin to reduce. againest better cc enemies; be honest neither can solve the problem. try ogres and such ![]() If you have a hitter army somehow maybe againest a gunline (with a stormbanner for sure) yes giantrats are better. except that its really not that obvious. And try to compare core units againest core units. there is really not much core units with s5 and such... oh btw if u trust ur tactical skills, move 6 rocks! |
| It's Alive!!! It's Alive!!! | |
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| Riktikticheck | 29th December 2009 - 04:27 AM Post #10 |
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Warlord
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seems you forgot the giant rats outnumber, which would cancel the banner out and let them win by 1. |
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| Bibamus | 29th December 2009 - 12:13 PM Post #11 |
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Grey Seer
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you guys keep forgetting that the PM's dont count towards a rank, so either you have 10 rat attacks and +3 ranks, or 10 rat attacks +PM atacks and +2 rank since they can only hit over 3 ranks of rats |
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It would be ugly to watch people poking sticks at a caged rat. It is uglier still to watch rats poking sticks at a caged person. 13th spell casts: 2 Kills: 32 Grave Guard,1 Vampire Lord | |
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| Sammy the Squid | 29th December 2009 - 01:15 PM Post #12 |
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Back to retirement!
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As much as I love Giant Rats, they will never replace my Clanrats. Usually with my Clanrats I aim to have them fighting alongside a unit of Rat Ogres or another small hard hitting unit. Kind of a combo-charge; Clanrats generate static CR, while the Ogres cause the kills. Plus the Clanrats 4+ save in combat helps them survive into future rounds of combat, providing you arent facing stuff like Chaos Warriors, Daemons and Lizardmen. My main problem with the Giant Rats is their lack of armour and standard. I always take at least 2 units of these guys, but they are kept out on the flanks to scare off Fast Cavalry, Skirmishers and such harrassment units. They then swing around to threaten the enemy flank. As much as i like them, I reckon I will always rely on the defensive capabilities of the Clanrats for my main line. The Giant Rats will be reserved for flanks... - Sammy |
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"If the squidman can't do it, no one can!!" Wins/Losses/Draws Skaven Clan Rattenkrieg - 108/58/20 Dark Elves - 44/14/8 Hochland Empire - 33/14/4 Malkavian Vampires - 23/22/4 Beastmen - 50/25/2 Have not completed a Painting Vow since July 07!! | |
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| Demented_SCV | 29th December 2009 - 01:56 PM Post #13 |
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Clanrat
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I thought that Packmasters did count towards Rank in a Unit of Giant Rats? (Book is not on hand). It's only Rat Ogre Units for which Packmasters do not count towards ranks. The games I play are mostly against Bretts, High Elves, and Wood Elves. So I'm usually dealing with massive STR opponents. My Clanrats virtually never get their full 4+ armour save. It's usually 6+ (woop dee doo). I prefer the Giant Rats instead. Had Jeremy Vetock made Slaves not count towards Core, I would probably play more Clanrats. I think that was a mistake on his part. |
| Just keep throwing Slaves at them until they falter and flee! | |
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| Mahtobedis | 29th December 2009 - 11:44 PM Post #14 |
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Warlord
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Two words, weapons teams. |
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| I_ated_Warpstone | 29th December 2009 - 11:50 PM Post #15 |
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Grey Seer
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Giant Rats are awesome of that there is no doubt. However Clan Rats are still a solid core unit. First I must disagree with your overall assessment of the effectiveness of Weapon Teams. I must admit that I am in love with the concept of WTs to being with but I run 2 WFTs and a DF and both are excellent. Second, the 4+ armor save of Clan Rats I find invaluable. Its not amazing but it is enough to slow down a enemy unit for a bit while I set up the rest of my battle plan. Finally Clan Rats are core, Giant Rats are not. I know that slaves are also core and can be used to fill but I don't think that is the most effective way to use any of those units. Still though, I fully support Giant Rats and use a hunting pack of my own to ferret out enemy wizard types or to harass war machines. |
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Skaven Tournament Performances Battle for the Block - Best General 4th Quarter RT - Best Overall Rumble in Jackson - Best Overall Toys for Tots Charity Tourney - Best General 1st Quarter RT - Best Overall Gamerz Depot Tourney - 1st Place "Hassle, annoy, aggravate, whatever it takes to not engage in a fair fight" Tournament players are people too | |
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Monstergunlinehammer indeed.



