| The Doomwheel; -Is it broken? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 6th December 2009 - 10:28 AM (2,329 Views) | |
| BloodStream | 6th December 2009 - 10:28 AM Post #1 |
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Clanrat
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Well I've been playing a lot of games with the new skaven book recently, all of which have used the doomwheel (I bought it with the book, I don't want to let the model go to waste.), and I've been having a few thoughts. The Doomwheel is seriously one of our hardest-hitting units, that's a given. But is it broken? I'd first like to point out that I've had around 15 1,500 point games, and 2 2,250 point games, and I've not lost a single one. I've played against Warriors, Daemons, Dark Elves, and Ogres, and I've not run into a single problem. Each of my games were heavily dependant on the Doomwheel pulling through, and that it did. Now, I'd just like to talk to you about a game I had last night that stood out exponentially, compared to my previous games. It was a 1,500 point game vs Warriors. In previous editions of skaven, I always had a huge problem with Knights. With their 2+ armour save and 4+ ward-save. But not anymore. I'd deployed my doomwheel directly opposite some warhounds that were screening the Knights. He got first turn, and moved stuff forward, so by turn 2 his warhounds were well within range of my Doomwheel. (He was probably hoping I'd roll a low number and not reach him). I didn't. I rolled 15, and smashed into the warhounds. I won't be giving a full battle report, so here's JUST what happened with the Doomwheel. By my first combat phase I'd obviously decimated the Warhounds, and I overran into the Knights. Which, unfortunately, were on a bit of an angle. By his next combat phase I'd caused 6 impact hits and killed of 4 of the 5 knights. Then, by some miracle, the crew attacks managed to kill the final knight, causing me to overrun into his Marauder block. With a nurgle sorcerer in. Needless to say, in the next combat phase I broke them in combat and they fled through his Tzeench Sorcerer on a disc, who I overran into. Next combat phase, the impact hits killed off the Tzeenchie sorcerer and I'd overran into the (still fleeing) marauders. This isn't the end, but let's have a look at what's happened so far. I killed a few Warhounds, no biggie. I decimated a unit of knights, which costed nearly DOUBLE the Doomwheel, I took out the unit of Marauders with a sorcerer which costs near 300 points, and I took out his disc-mounted sorcerer, which costs 209 points. Not only this, but he'd only managed a few attacks on me, (His nurgle sorcerer and the single knight) which meant I was still at 4 wounds. After I'd run down his marauders, I was in a perfect position to flank-charge his warriors. This didn't go AS well as the previous turns, due to the fact that he'd armed them with the Rapturous standard (He ended up getting insane courage every turn until I'd killed them all.). The Warriors were already in combat with a unit of slaves, and two units of clanrats. Finally, on turn 4 or 5, I can't really remember, my doomwheel used it's Grinding attack to take down the standard bearer, meaning the Warriors fled and my Doomwheel caught it. By turn 3 I'd decimated almost his entire army, with a 150 point killing machine. Now, I think I'd be okay with it if the Doomwheel actually had some weaknesses, but it doesn't! I never doubted for a minute that I wouldn't be able to kill most of his army with it, and that's why I think it's broken. Now, you could put this down to luck. But I've gotta say, I must be the LUCKIEST person on the planet if that was all luck. I'm not too good with the statistics side of maths, so I won't bother trying to maths-hammer it all, but D6+1 automatic S6 hits is pretty horrific. Especially against Warriors. I think I'd be okay with it if the Doomwheel was a chariot. I mean, it moves like a chariot, it does everything a chariot does, it shoots like a chariot, does combat like a chariot, but it doesn't explode on a S7 hit like a chariot. What's up with that? Tl;Dr: I think the Doomwheel's way too overpowered and I feel like I should be getting beaten every time I use it. Mutate: I deliberately denied the existence of the HPA, because on the overpowered scale, that's about a 19 out of 5. |
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| Blitz | 6th December 2009 - 10:51 AM Post #2 |
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Mad Skaven Strategic Genius that Sucks At Painting
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The Doomwheel is ok, it is suppossed to be like that. It blew up in my face 3 times, since everything blows up in my face. So, enjoy you killing, but be careful, it can blow up. |
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| Fenris | 6th December 2009 - 11:02 AM Post #3 |
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Chieftain
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I agree that it is very strong. The first game I used it in it killed a hydra with one shot. But then I rolled horrible and it got chased down. |
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| Sammy the Squid | 6th December 2009 - 11:09 AM Post #4 |
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Back to retirement!
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Ive played 8 games with the Doomwheel, and its only ever been game-winning once, when it rolled across a High Elf army with ease. Another game it crunched my own army. But most of the time it does ok, but certainly no game winner. I dont think its busted at all, as it works just like an expensive chatiot which has the ability to shoot a randomly strong burst of lightning. Against most enemy ranked units, 1 on 1 it will loose same as any other chariot, and it really needs a ranked unit of Clanrats to back it up... It is powerful, but when you compare it to the Abomination or unbreakable Furnace, I really cant find anything to complain about. If it was a Special choice, yeh, itd be broken, but its a Rare, and taking it denyes your army the other powerful Rare choices. Its not like the Lizardmen Stegadons where you can take 5+ in an army, they will be a rare sight on the battlefield... I am currently working on a 2 Doomwheel 2k list, using the awesome OLD Doomwheel models. I plan to run one up each flank with some 'lightning-bait' to distract the enemy while my main army surges forth in the center... :ph43r: - Sammy |
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"If the squidman can't do it, no one can!!" Wins/Losses/Draws Skaven Clan Rattenkrieg - 108/58/20 Dark Elves - 44/14/8 Hochland Empire - 33/14/4 Malkavian Vampires - 23/22/4 Beastmen - 50/25/2 Have not completed a Painting Vow since July 07!! | |
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| BloodStream | 6th December 2009 - 11:15 AM Post #5 |
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Clanrat
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I can see where you're coming from, but I nearly always take the Ld test to not fire, unless it could actually do some serious damage to a monster or something. I don't think the Doomwheel NEEDS the shooting, I've been more than capable of mowing down units with just the combat. And about it taking up a rare spot, I don't think that's a problem in friendly games. I mean, the HPA is horrific, there's no denying that, so I'd never take the HPA in a friendly game. And now that Plague Censer Bearers are special, I actually usually have a spare rare choice, since I don't really need anything else. |
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| Lues | 6th December 2009 - 11:23 AM Post #6 |
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On my last game with three of my friends all takeing 2000pts lists and going with Wood Elves and Dwarves against me and my friends Skaven the doomwheel misfired at turn one (couldn't restrain the shot) and run into some slaves. No biggie. It then was shot by the dwarves cannon whitch weren't affected by the Stormbanner. In conclusion it didn't do much. Neither did the two furnaces and an abomination against cannons stonethrowers and an Anvil. Abomination died to flameing cannonball and furnaces were shot down too eventually. Damn they are fragile against cannons without a ward on them
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| Ratarsed | 6th December 2009 - 11:33 AM Post #7 |
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Grey Seer
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My first thought on your mini report was why your opponent didn't flee with his hounds? I know there is some debate about charging doomwheels, but if you are not allowing charge responses from a unit being hit by the wheel it could explain your successess and feelings about the wheel. A flee from the hounds and it would be the knights charging the wheel, getting their attacks in first and limiting you to d3 grinding attacks as opposed to d6+1 impact hits. Suddenly the tabels are reversed and in all likleyhood the wheel breaks not the knights. I have had mixed successess with the 3 games I've used one so far. Against the Woodelves it was the MVP of my army. In a word awsome. Against Dwarfs I failed to restrain from shooting, misfired and crashed into a house. 6 str10 hits later the wheel was just a wrecked pile of wood and metal. Against High elves I made a mistake and allowed it to get into range of a Star Dragon. Chomp one dead wheel. Ratarsed |
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| Bibamus | 6th December 2009 - 11:42 AM Post #8 |
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Grey Seer
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the doomwheel will get eaten alive by a hero in CC, and if the unit if big enough to have +3 Rank +1 Standard and +1 outnumber you have to kill 6 just to win the combat. the fact that you were lucky to pass all your Ld test for the shots and rolled high on impact hits is your luck not the DW being overwpowered. try throwing it into a unit of VC skelletons/ghouls/zombies/grave guard. its going to stay there for at least 1 turn if the guy doesn't raise the models back. i had my DW run from combat due to 1W from a random trooper and static CR, its not as broken. the fact that it killed so much in your last game is because it got to overrrun, its your oponents fault for letting you do that, normally it shouldn't happen unless you hit a straight flank of the army. the HPA isn't broken either, i've seen my killed by meere ghouls beceause of the poison attacks, lore of fire kills it aswell, not to mention any cannon that hit it 2 or 3 times before it gets where it needs to. to lack of an armor save and T5 makes it a decent monster, nothing over powered. |
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It would be ugly to watch people poking sticks at a caged rat. It is uglier still to watch rats poking sticks at a caged person. 13th spell casts: 2 Kills: 32 Grave Guard,1 Vampire Lord | |
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| Arcqueek | 6th December 2009 - 11:58 AM Post #9 |
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Clanrat
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Well, you are talking about one of the most expensive chariots here and seem to forget that. Chariots have always been "if they work, they destroy armies, if they don't work, they fail at the first attack". By the look of your mini-report, you are kinda lucky when it comes down to rolling dices with the Wheel. You remember Skaven? The race where lucky dices are rewarded more than others? You see, my Wheel started killing my own guys in round one once. Drove forward, rolled too much to halt fire, missfired, drove backwards, impact, unit flees. It seems that you are very lucky with these things, otherwise you'd see that the missfires CAN be AWEFUL. This plus the usual problems of chariots (if stuck then dead, in most cases) make for a unit that HAS to have the ability to inflict major damage. Otherwise people would just complain about it killing more Skaven than Other-Things, being overpriced, not able to kill anything at all, WLCs being more reliable,...
Additionally, it seems your Warrior friend still hasn't figured out what chariots do. Seriously, placing the knights behind a screening unit that will die because of impact hits with an angle? Does he WANT to have the Wheel driving through his army? Then yeah, he does quite well. If I open up my flanks to overrun attacks by, let's say Warrior or Beasts or High Elf chariots and have them smashing my whole army, I wouldn't say that chariots are overpowered - I just can't play, obviously... |
| If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid. | |
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| BloodStream | 6th December 2009 - 11:59 AM Post #10 |
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Clanrat
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Actually, in a game I had a while ago I got flanked by an exalted on a disc after getting charged by some warhounds, I lost the combat but passed my break test and ended up causing 3 wounds with the grinding attack on the exalted. Even if you don't get the charge, you still have the grinding attacks which are very powerful. Mutate: I'd also like to point out that the HPA and a giant cost about the same, and I'm fairly sure the HPA is much better. I mean, too horrible to die could bring it back to 6 wounds if it's not killed by a flaming attack. |
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| Bibamus | 6th December 2009 - 12:03 PM Post #11 |
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Grey Seer
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throwing D3 S6 atacks against a lone character is quite powerfull... as shooting with the DW in the shooting phase against that character, WLC, Warp Lightning, Cloud of Corruption, or just charging a hero with a whole unit. and in my last game i had 2 clan rats get insane courage in combat with my HPA so that rather sucked, but thats luck. |
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It would be ugly to watch people poking sticks at a caged rat. It is uglier still to watch rats poking sticks at a caged person. 13th spell casts: 2 Kills: 32 Grave Guard,1 Vampire Lord | |
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| BloodStream | 6th December 2009 - 12:08 PM Post #12 |
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Clanrat
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Arcqueek, I do agree that he messed up with the knights which caused him to lose the game, but the knights cost almost double the doomwheel. Something doesn't add up there. Chariots aren't overpowered, because they're extremely vulnerable to S7 hits. In the game where I was flanked by the Exalted on a disc, the Doomwheel wouldn't have had a chance to kill it because I was hit by 3 S7 hits which wounded. |
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| Bibamus | 6th December 2009 - 12:20 PM Post #13 |
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Grey Seer
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most races bring some flaming damage to the table, and those will targe the HPA, 1 wound from 1 of those and no "I'll be back!" roll. it doesn't have to be the last wound, but any to deny the roll |
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It would be ugly to watch people poking sticks at a caged rat. It is uglier still to watch rats poking sticks at a caged person. 13th spell casts: 2 Kills: 32 Grave Guard,1 Vampire Lord | |
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| Arcqueek | 6th December 2009 - 12:44 PM Post #14 |
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Clanrat
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He messed up. You said it. Now matter how much a unit costs (and especially the costly units are vulnerable to some specific sort of attacks [hullo shooting!]), if you screw up, it's screwed. Additionally, as I already said, you were VERY lucky to kill 4 just by 1d6+1 impact hits. You were lucky. This is Warhammer. If you are incredibly lucky, the enemy doesn't stand a chance! We have a local Lizard player who, regardless of the current edition, always destroys you. Why? Because when he really needs a certain spell, he takes 3 dices and rolles 2 6s . That's it. You can't do anything against LUCK. Luck doesn't care about the costs of a unit or the usual chance against it. If you take 1d6+1 impact hits, roll a 6, wound 4 of 7 attacks and he fails his armor saves (what? 5+? 4+?) and 4+ ward saves then yeah, he's destroyed. You destroyed knights once. Celebrate, try it again. What, you lose that combat because you only deal 3 impact hits, killing 1 knight? Damn, well, there goes your luck!
Its are rare choice, it's T6 and only has 5 wounds. An imperial cannon still damages it pretty badly, since they (can) cause more than 1 wound per shot. So, artillery can still destroy it within one round. Not that secure of course, but if the 70something point cannon one-shots my rare-choice-150-point chariot in turn 1 and continues devastating my army "because cannons are fine", then screw this. Its the same with characters. Give an S5 character a Two Handed Weapon and he's allowed to destroy anything within one attack? Aw, come on. This S7-destroys-chariots thing was rubbish to begin with. It's okay with TK, Goblin and maaaaybe Beast chariots (which are small and frail) but the others? Meh. |
| If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid. | |
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| Riktikticheck | 6th December 2009 - 01:21 PM Post #15 |
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Warlord
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yeah last time i got to charge chaos knights in the flank with my wheel i got 5 impacts wounded with 4 and zero died (4+) and without a support unit for resolution i would have lost the combat too. |
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