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Games Workshop is sinking REALLY low; All BoardGameGeek GW files taken offline
Topic Started: 26th November 2009 - 01:36 PM (2,357 Views)
Ratemis
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Made of 110% Skaven!
I_ated_Warpstone
Dec 7 2009, 11:15 AM
In response to those interested in my personal GW experience.

I was not a Redshirt - I was a Black Shirt(a manager) with an AR(added responsibility) title. This put me in a position to make roughly 48k a year(as a 22 year old with no college education that was good money). I worked for the company for a little over three years, I was a manager for the last year of my time with the company. My store was a profitable store(around a 13% profit margin) and showing annual growth. So all of the signs pointed to a successful store. We had a small but loyal customer base of about 300 to 350 people and that was growing. Things looked good.

So, since I thought I was in a position of financial stability I made some decisions. I decided to buy a car(financed for 14.5k) and move in to my own place(at about $550 a month). I did all of this in September. Life was good. I was investing money in my 401k, running a profitable store and growing my customer base.

Now for the downfall. One Thursday in March of 09 I drove to my store. I was going to meet my employees and we were going to have our weekly meeting to discuss store business. Well, I pull up in front of the building pretty early (had to prepare for the meeting) and as I do I see two cars outside and two people inside. I walk to the door and see my Regional Manager and another manager in my store. My Regional Manager tells me to sit down and wait for my employees. So my boys show up and we all have a seat. Then my Regional Manager proceeds to inform all of us that they were shutting down our store.

We had no warning at all. There was never even any rumblings that they might be closing us down. And we had no signs at the store because we were doing well! So, they took our keys and told us to pack up. We wouldn't be allowed to work the last weekend at the store, but if we wanted we could come watch them gut the store and watch the vultures pick at the remains. I packed my things that day and took them to my mother's house.

I then had to call my girlfriend(who lived with me) and let her know that our main source of income was gone. She came home and we started looking at our bills and came to the conclusion that we couldn't afford to live at the apartment anymore. So, I had to break my lease early (and take a huge hit to my credit score) to move out and back in with my mother.

So gents, that's my story of working for Games Workshop. Let's say that I'm an extremely bitter person concerning the company. And to anyone who suggests I should look to my regional manager, no. That's now how corporate structuring works at Games Workshop. The decision came from the very top. Stores aren't allowed to be opened or closed without permission from the head of that country's retail who has to have permission from Mark Wells. Closing my store sucked. No warning is bullshit. GW is a company that tells everyone that it is founded on Honesty, Courage, and Humility. Nothing about the way my store was closed was
any of those things. Nothing about the way GW treats people at all is any of those three things.

And to anyone who feels slighted or takes issue with my opinion concerning GW and its supporters - eh? I'm obstinate and hateful when it comes to the company who wasted three years of my life and at the end I was worse off than I was when I started. So, yeah I find any defense of Games Workshop founded in loyalty to a company that is possessed of a filthy underbelly that customers never see.

No offense intended, but there would seem to be more at work than just what you saw. Saying that something happened for no reason just means that you didn't see the process that went behind it. The reason I suggest looking to those directly above you is because it is their responsibility to handle the situation better than they did.

It's a terrible situation, but I would look to those directly above you for it. The "top level" of GW may not know who you were but had reason to close the store, but your regional manager did know you and it all still happened with little warning. They wouldn't stop it from happening, because they must have had sufficient reason to do so*, but it could have happened a lot easier on everyone involved.


*Coporations, especially "Faceless" ones don't close successful stores for no reason what so ever. It's unprofitable to do so.

Beyer
 

Ratemis
Dec 7 2009, 05:58 AM
Privateer Press can get away with being more "player friendly" with letting people make those kinds of things because they don't spend jack on actually developing the setting and game beyond the rules. There's more "bro-speak" in their rulebooks than setting or background info.

Warmachine started out as a roleplaying game and still is an RPG.
It's called the iron kingdoms and the WM and hordes books are choc a bloc full of fluff, except PP doesn't mash the fluff in between rules and mix it up, they keep it separately, as they should be and one might be inclined to think that some people consider this "less fluff for the game" I however consider it common sense.

You can even get fluff for all the factions every time you buy a book and not just fluff for one faction as you do when you buy an army book.

Also, PP don't chance their fluff from edition to edition.

I don't care about anything but the rules though it's a game I play, not a roleplaying experience by any means. But saying PP has no fluff is outright wrong and overly biased.

They haven't change the fluff because they spend no time doing so and care little to attempt to do so. As an RPG Iron Kingdoms was underused and underdeveloped, and has been for years. Its now just the thin premise upon which the Warmachine game sits. They've always updated it sparingly compared to other systems and it suffered because of it.

I never said they had no background, I said they spend and care little to update or grow the setting, and that they spend more time trying to pump you up and make the game sound macho and "leet" than they do on much of anything else. There's not even any subtlety to it. You might open a Warhammer book and find a very dramatic and/or heroic picture that looks awesome. Opening a Warmachine book finds the first two pages screaming at you how "leet" this system is over everything else.

The background may not interest many gamers, it could even not interest most gamers, but it exists as a significant personal and time investment by the developers and designers. It thus has a great effect upon those people when it is cut out of their publications, as mentioned in my earlier post.
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I_ated_Warpstone
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Ratemis
Dec 7 2009, 12:33 PM
*Coporations, especially "Faceless" ones don't close successful stores for no reason what so ever. It's unprofitable to do so.


I know exactly why they closed us. We were a non regional store. Games Workshop doesn't like non regional stores. With that said, that September when I was in Vegas for the manager's meeting we were told that Games Workshop was done closing non metro stores.

I've never not understood why they closed us. What I've never understood is why they handled it the way they did. And in regards to "look at those above you", my regional manager quit the company after they closed my store because he was tired of being made to be the hit man. My Regional Manager didn't know until 2 days before that Thursday that were were closing. No, the people who chose to handle it poorly were people at the top of the US Retail operation.

Games Workshop is different. They do things different than other retail operations. So, and I don't want to sound like an asshole, don't try to explain to me what happened or why I shouldn't be angry. I was there, I experienced it. You didn't. I know the people who made the decision, I know why they did it, I even know when they did it at this point. The people who made the decision were people who I had professional respect for. I don't need someone who wasn't there, wasn't involved, and doesn't have the same perspective on the situation as me to tell me "well there was a reason and you shouldn't be angry with the company".
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Rats&Goblins
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I'm just stunned that despite all they did, you're still in the hobby?
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I_ated_Warpstone
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Rats&Goblins
Dec 7 2009, 04:19 PM
I'm just stunned that despite all they did, you're still in the hobby?

I play with some the greatest guys I've ever met. The 12 people I regularly play with are some of my best friends in the whole world. We share a hobby that we're all good at. We travel to tournaments all over the country and have a great time. Even with all that I still took a long hiatus from the hobby after I lost my job. But the new Skaven book lured me back in. I did ebay everything not fantasy related though.

The hard part to stomach is putting money in GW's pocket, but I take solace in supporting a local business with my purchases. As long as that money is helping my FLGS stay in business then I look the other way morally.
Skaven Tournament Performances
Battle for the Block - Best General
4th Quarter RT - Best Overall
Rumble in Jackson - Best Overall
Toys for Tots Charity Tourney - Best General
1st Quarter RT - Best Overall
Gamerz Depot Tourney - 1st Place

"Hassle, annoy, aggravate, whatever it takes to not engage in a fair fight"
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Ratemis
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Made of 110% Skaven!
I_ated_Warpstone
Dec 7 2009, 04:32 PM
Rats&Goblins
Dec 7 2009, 04:19 PM
I'm just stunned that despite all they did, you're still in the hobby?

I play with some the greatest guys I've ever met. The 12 people I regularly play with are some of my best friends in the whole world. We share a hobby that we're all good at. We travel to tournaments all over the country and have a great time. Even with all that I still took a long hiatus from the hobby after I lost my job. But the new Skaven book lured me back in. I did ebay everything not fantasy related though.

The hard part to stomach is putting money in GW's pocket, but I take solace in supporting a local business with my purchases. As long as that money is helping my FLGS stay in business then I look the other way morally.

Look at it this way, you're not putting the money into GW's pockets, that money went in there when the FLGS made the order. You're putting the money into the pockets of your FLGS.

Quote:
 
Ratemis
Dec 7 2009, 12:33 PM
*Coporations, especially "Faceless" ones don't close successful stores for no reason what so ever. It's unprofitable to do so.


I know exactly why they closed us. We were a non regional store. Games Workshop doesn't like non regional stores. With that said, that September when I was in Vegas for the manager's meeting we were told that Games Workshop was done closing non metro stores.

I've never not understood why they closed us. What I've never understood is why they handled it the way they did. And in regards to "look at those above you", my regional manager quit the company after they closed my store because he was tired of being made to be the hit man. My Regional Manager didn't know until 2 days before that Thursday that were were closing. No, the people who chose to handle it poorly were people at the top of the US Retail operation.

Games Workshop is different. They do things different than other retail operations. So, and I don't want to sound like an asshole, don't try to explain to me what happened or why I shouldn't be angry. I was there, I experienced it. You didn't. I know the people who made the decision, I know why they did it, I even know when they did it at this point. The people who made the decision were people who I had professional respect for. I don't need someone who wasn't there, wasn't involved, and doesn't have the same perspective on the situation as me to tell me "well there was a reason and you shouldn't be angry with the company".


Of course, apparently I didn't have the full picture. However, I still find it somewhat dramatic to say your angry at an entire company. Which seems to either mean you're even angry at the people who had nothing to do with it in the company (poor mail order trolls), your angry at the idea of GW, or your angry at some non-existent gestalt consciousness that, apparently, is GW. Or, you're just angry at top people in certain areas, but apply that same anger to every slight seen or heard about. Percieved, existent, or non-existent.
My Skaven Army, now with Testudorats!
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" However, Bonebreakers have another mark against them now. Going up a hill can kill your warlord if you roll bad. Should call them Neckbreakers
"Get down from there! You could fall and break your neck!""
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scrivener
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*toot*

What they didn't to you isn't pleasant, not at all, but it's the financial crisis, lots of unpleasant things were going on. GW wasn't the only company booting people with little warning. There was pressure to cut losses hard and fast. I remember when they did the retrenchment sweep earlier this year at my company and the unlucky ones had to leave as soon as they were told the news. There was a "cows to the slaughter" ambience when you suddenly discover that they're running retrenchments today and you don't know it's you until you get a call from HR. I wasn't there at your incident but I was seeing the same thing everywhere, at my job, to my friends and friend's spouses and on the news. I was seeing it with people who had just taken up mortgages, just had a baby, people who discover that their entire office has been shut down while they were on maternity leave. I'm not saying that this justifies it, just saying that things are different in a GFC and these are the sorts of things that happen.

I hope things go better for you, but hey, don't let these things hold you down. :)

I'd be peeved too if that happened to me, but I think as Ratemis said hold the issue with the people responsible. It's like with the original topic of this thread, the legal smackdown and how the lawyers are being really cold and brutal about it. The top level management is not the one writing the cease and desist letters; all they are probably aware of is that they want to protect their IP and that's it. The lawyers are charged with the responsibility of making it happen, and the lawyers are doing it in the way that they consider most effective from a legal perspective.
hannanibal
 
*Angry mob assembles*

"WHAT DO WE WANT!!??"
"A THINNISH, WATERY PAINT WITH A GREENER TINGE THAN AGRAX EARTHSHADE!!"
"WHEN DO WE WANT IT!?"
"QUITE SOON PLEASE AS MY LAST POT IS RUNNING OUT!"
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Clanlord Trask
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Quiet, I'm plotting.

I'm with scriv, I_ated_Warpstone. For lack of a finer term, stuff happens.

The closing of a corporate owned store by the company is a part of life. Unfortunately when you are part of a larger corporation, individual success does not transfer over into company success. Your little wins may be part of a larger loss, and you may have to wear it. I know this from experience.

I too was employed for three years at a publishing company until one day, with out warning, I was booted out. But I wore it, took it for what it was, took the experience I had gained from that three years, and soldiered on. Got another job, and then 12 months later this whole fanancial crisis thing happens and I'm out on my ear again. So back to square one, looking for work. All this time I also had rent and bills and whatever to pay, but you sort it out. It's part of life.

My point here being, within the framework of the topic we have been discussing, your personal interactions with Games Workshop are irrelevant. If this is a copywrite issue, it is a copywrite issue, and blanketing anything as 'evil and faceless' isn't a constructive argument.
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Bibamus
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not that i want to get into this very interessting "fight" but the topic name is a direct attack on GW so any other such attacks are relevant :P
It would be ugly to watch people poking sticks at a caged rat. It is uglier still to watch rats poking sticks at a caged person.


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scrivener
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*toot*

Bibamus
Dec 7 2009, 11:07 PM
not that i want to get into this very interessting "fight" but the topic name is a direct attack on GW so any other such attacks are relevant :P

To a degree. All opinions are relevant and welcome, of course, but these sorts of threads tend to become random GW Bashfests, and if possible we'd like to keep it on track.
hannanibal
 
*Angry mob assembles*

"WHAT DO WE WANT!!??"
"A THINNISH, WATERY PAINT WITH A GREENER TINGE THAN AGRAX EARTHSHADE!!"
"WHEN DO WE WANT IT!?"
"QUITE SOON PLEASE AS MY LAST POT IS RUNNING OUT!"
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QueekQueek
Grey Seer
I'm no lawyer or anything, but Warpstone, if your story is as stated, it sounds like something you could take legal action on. Your livelihood was threatened and your credit was damaged due to poor communication within the company you worked for. The credit damage, I would think, would be a strong enough argument in court to land you a rather large settlement.

One question: What about unemployment? ...I know it's not a permanent solution, but it could have kept you in your apartment for a few months while you got things worked out...?
The best laid plans of mice-men often go astray...
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Discomite
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Clanrat
QueekQueek
Dec 13 2009, 04:09 PM
I'm no lawyer or anything, but Warpstone, if your story is as stated, it sounds like something you could take legal action on. Your livelihood was threatened and your credit was damaged due to poor communication within the company you worked for. The credit damage, I would think, would be a strong enough argument in court to land you a rather large settlement.

Not if he was employed on an "at-will" basis. Most employment in the USA is this. This means that the employee can leave the job at any time without notice and the company can terminate employment at any time without notice. This is usually listed out in the company's employee handbook and/or listed in any employment agreement that is signed by the employee.

As far as the original topic: It seems like GW was protecting their intellectual property. Big Bad Evil or not, they are a very expansive and well-known brand that employs a huge number of people worldwide. This sort of behavior is pretty typical of large entertainment corporations. I can't agree or disagree with it because I don't know all of the facts, but I am not surprised by it.
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Grimstonefire
Clanrat
If the BGG issue is in any way related to Army Builder style data files, the reason they took it down is probably the same reasons they won't just license Army Builder.

They want direct control over everything, but are too lazy to put any time or money into it. Nobody else can do it either.

@QueekQueek

There probably is a time limit for pursuing any employment legal stuff. I'm guessing most of us know nothing anything about it all it's something that would need a lot of thought and some professional advice. Bear in mind if there is any time limit it would be better to make enquiries sooner than too late.
I always have a FW CHAOS DWARF HELLSMITH or two for sale. PM me if you're interested.
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Demonrat Thing
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The Bloated
I agree with QueekQueek. I smell a lawsuit, but you only have so much time before nothing can be done. If your credit was affected I would say you have a fighting chance. Only question, did you sign anything before being hired stating they could terminate your employment at anytime? If you did, you have no chance at all.
Doom, Doom, Doom,
it seems to endlessly say… all will fall, all will be ruinous,
Doom, Doom, Doom.
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Ratarsed
Grey Seer
It does make me angry when I hear stories like Warpstones. Big companies always make a big thing about caring for their employees, but they don't really, they just know people happy in their job are more productive than those not, and it is important the staff feel valued in order to be happy in their job. By the sounds of it Warpstone was.
I don't know how employment laws work in the US but I know in the UK they could not just turf you out like that without the agreed notice pay and your redundacy entitlement. I hope at least you recieved a reasonable pay off otherwise that sucks big time.

Ratarsed
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Baru
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@ _ated_warpstone: Wow....IIRC those kinda of actions on such short notice are illigel in my country.

Anyways, I kinda feel both ways on this issue. Sure it's all big bad company and all and isn't really allowed, but the whole thing is copyrighted for a reason. GW is a far bigger international company than any other company currently on the market, sure there is PP, but they are still a tiny speck in Europe compared to GW. GW can affored less luxeries. A good example is the German IP. IIRC if you allow 1 person their to use your IP without permission or payment, then EVERYONE is allowed to use your IP without permission or payment (it's simply equal rights for everybody). I think you could imagine what kind of effects that will have and they have had these kind of situations in the past.

Certain laws in Europe as a whole has changed. One of the things is that a company is not allowed to provide certain rights towards a country while the other country is denied those rights.

Now think about that for a moment.....k? Time for an example: Joe in america has a nifty little site that is called warhammerskaven.imaginationland. The site is small, but has a dedicated fan base. Now pierre from France has made a nifty product called 'Skaven', but discovers to his dismay that the name has been copyrighted and thus has to pay in order to use it (and will most likely be refused those rights). Then Pierre discovers warhammerskaven.imaginationland and sees that this fansite uses skaven in without any penalties, but by law he is then allowed equal rights. Now he can just use skaven without a problem for profit margins, but GW has just been violated in a place where the sun don't shine.

Disclaimer: This example is a very basic example. European law is highly complex, because of all the countries it includes and I'm by no means a lawyer (I'm an engineer, which is far from it). But this is how everything has been explained to me by a certain person I shall not name. I could've misunderstood him, but seeing how European rights has been developing lately I could imagine it (We already practicaly have a european constitution and almost a president, but they have made some seriously stupid mistakes in that corner, but that is another topic).

As for other companies. Do they have given rights towards other company's (video games, RPG's, board games etc)? no. Are they as internationally based as GW? no. Are they a European company and thus IIRC bound by European law? Yes. Now normally this will only have effect in Europe, but the internet is far more than that and we all know how much trouble internet has caused towards IP rights (heck in the netherlands downloading is legal, but uploading isn't. While in other countries it's the other way around). People are still trying to get their heads around the fact in dealing with the internet in terms of company's and international law. Mutate: Heck most other company's in other branches of entertainment/anything else outside the miniatures world will outright sew you for even contemplating IP breach. I find that the miniature business is still very naive and innocent compared to other branches where a company has a legion of lawyers just for IP.

PP (the so called big contender of GW) is still small and hasn't had their IP swung around as much. GW used to be everything that PP is (and in my experience still in many ways is, the people behind the scenes aren't big bad monsters), but times are changing and thus certain policies will change. I will place my paw in the fire if this won't happen to PP in the next 10 to 15 years if they continue to grow.

Now to address how they are doing it. Most of these C&D letters often ask to change a few things, but in case of the internet this means making an entire bugger in url, programming and generally loads of work and thus certain sites would probably prefer to close. Also the C&D letters are probably issued by lawyers and most lawyers have to be really harsh in their line of work.

Just my 2 cents....

Reason for mutation: added in a few things inbetween sentences. Ow and warpstone of course.
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