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Tier system; and us
Topic Started: 24th November 2009 - 03:37 PM (753 Views)
Bibamus
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Grey Seer
you can't have both, choose 1. you either rate an army by tourney results, and by that ruling skaven is the worst army ever since nobody showed up at a tournament with it;afaik there hasn't been any tournament since our book came out(could be wrong on this, my mistake if i am), or you rate it by its capabilities, here you must see the efectiveness of WoC.
It would be ugly to watch people poking sticks at a caged rat. It is uglier still to watch rats poking sticks at a caged person.


13th spell casts: 2 Kills: 32 Grave Guard,1 Vampire Lord
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I_ated_Warpstone
Grey Seer
Bibamus
Nov 24 2009, 09:12 PM
you can't have both, choose 1. you either rate an army by tourney results, and by that ruling skaven is the worst army ever since nobody showed up at a tournament with it;afaik there hasn't been any tournament since our book came out(could be wrong on this, my mistake if i am), or you rate it by its capabilities, here you must see the efectiveness of WoC.


Fine - remove Skaven from the tier system. WoC are still a bad army by that qualifications. I personally don't think there is any real question that Skaven will quite easily place in the upcoming tourney scene. Have it as you will, remove Skaven, you don't get to put them in the tier system at all currently. But note, that by logical extension Skaven are not the worst army ever but instead are a non-existent factor when using only one system of merit comparison.

Let's drop some of the snappiness and discuss the actual merits of the army books and what they allow a general to do and supplement that, where available, with provable evidence. Certainly if you want to argue one system of merit only then Skaven either cannot be placed or place well. However, if one was to be reasonable(something I find quite lacking in your post) then one can effectively place skaven on looking at the book and the relative amount of information we have from our community base and we can effectively place WoC based on a more concrete qualifier(how well it places in tournaments). However, judging by your posts I doubt you'll accept that you could do both of these things in the same tier system, and if I'm correct, I'll bow out of this as the exercise has become intellectually bankrupt.
Skaven Tournament Performances
Battle for the Block - Best General
4th Quarter RT - Best Overall
Rumble in Jackson - Best Overall
Toys for Tots Charity Tourney - Best General
1st Quarter RT - Best Overall
Gamerz Depot Tourney - 1st Place

"Hassle, annoy, aggravate, whatever it takes to not engage in a fair fight"
Tournament players are people too
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Warlock Rageaganish
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I used to be schizophrenic, BUT WE'RE OKAY NOW!

Stating that WoC aren't capable of being a high tier army because they don't perform in the tourney ranking is directly shooting down the argument you make with:
Quote:
 
And in regards to "how cheesy" is the list - that's not what matters. What matters is how well the list can perform.


WoC perform just like skaven do, but in a different way. Both of these list offer performing build capabilities, the only question, and the only thing stopping them from being top tier, is how cheesy are the top tier army lists that win those tourney??? When you mix cheese with a skilled commander, these skilled cheese just become more a pain...

We all know DoC are broken... We all know DE love to abuse. We all know VC are the cheese... So meta and power gamers LOVE them...

Stating that WoC aren't performing like the Lizzies because of tourney results is just looking at papers. Just because an army doesn't looks good on paper doesn't mean it can't be a serious contender. The poor results of WoC at tourneys mainly come from the fact that they are currently especially vulnerable to the 3 main cheeses out there. When you're not using "the cheese builds" with those top tier armies, WoC beat the crap out of them every time, just as skaven do.


Anyway, back on topics:
Skaven are defiantely 4th place contenders right now...
I beleive we got the ability to deal with the cheesy armies of top tier. Hard games, that, definitely... But it's possible. It all depends on how many skilled cheeses will leave their DoC, DE, or VC army behind to play skaven at the next few tourneys...
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WARNING: Critical thinking can lead to improved mental facility, decreased gullibility, increased social activism, an improved quality of discourse, and a better understanding of the surrounding world. May also lead to change of minds, revision of opinions and ignoring of bad political pundits.
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Bibamus
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Grey Seer
probably my mistake for being tired, and i do see your point, this has been reduced to a matter of opinion the way i see it, it seems that i like chaos more than you do :P. i still think its a reasonable army and it has its merits, i wont even try to put it in the tier since i have no clue about most armies, but i do not hink it should rank amongs the weakest.
i did want to mutate my previous post to apologise if i have offended you, but i will do so here. my only intention was to discuss the merits of both armies.
It would be ugly to watch people poking sticks at a caged rat. It is uglier still to watch rats poking sticks at a caged person.


13th spell casts: 2 Kills: 32 Grave Guard,1 Vampire Lord
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I_ated_Warpstone
Grey Seer
Warlock Rageaganish
Nov 24 2009, 09:34 PM
*snip*

I'll simply point you to my above post responding to Bibamus.

You can, in fact, rank armies on a tier system using multiple systems of merits. I know its hard to believe, but you can.
Skaven Tournament Performances
Battle for the Block - Best General
4th Quarter RT - Best Overall
Rumble in Jackson - Best Overall
Toys for Tots Charity Tourney - Best General
1st Quarter RT - Best Overall
Gamerz Depot Tourney - 1st Place

"Hassle, annoy, aggravate, whatever it takes to not engage in a fair fight"
Tournament players are people too
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Bibamus
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Grey Seer
fair enough, i shall stop arguing on this mater as it will bring nothing good for you, me or the forum. and i do admit being wrong on most counts.
It would be ugly to watch people poking sticks at a caged rat. It is uglier still to watch rats poking sticks at a caged person.


13th spell casts: 2 Kills: 32 Grave Guard,1 Vampire Lord
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I_ated_Warpstone
Grey Seer
Bibamus
Nov 24 2009, 09:44 PM
fair enough, i shall stop arguing on this mater as it will bring nothing good for you, me or the forum. and i do admit being wrong on most counts.

I don't mind entertaining other opinions, I just want more proof than book value. I can fully accept the idea that WoC should be moved up from bottom to mid. I just get frustrated when people present very little credible evidence when there is a great deal of evidence that exists that proves or disproves an army that has been in circulation for a while now. And I admit, I'm frustrated quite easily which does lead me to be snippy from time to time, and I do apologize.

Also - I was not attempting to draw your(Bibamus) attention to the post above but Warlock's instead.

I fully accept that I may have been a bit snippy and I apologize, but I if we are to discuss a tier system I'd like for it to be discussed in a quantifiable manner, and for me those quantifiable elements place the greatest emphasis on tournament performance where available. If that information is not available then the next ready fall back would be book + game evaluation.
Skaven Tournament Performances
Battle for the Block - Best General
4th Quarter RT - Best Overall
Rumble in Jackson - Best Overall
Toys for Tots Charity Tourney - Best General
1st Quarter RT - Best Overall
Gamerz Depot Tourney - 1st Place

"Hassle, annoy, aggravate, whatever it takes to not engage in a fair fight"
Tournament players are people too
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chieftainskritchskritch
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The Freshmaker

I_ated_Warpstone
Nov 24 2009, 08:58 PM
chieftainskritchskritch
Nov 24 2009, 08:39 PM
carcharoth
Nov 24 2009, 05:04 PM
WoC have some really powerful special characters, and crazy high AS from that chaos armour stuff of theirs. i've also heard their magic is  potent as well.
admittedly, i've only faced them once, so i'm mainly going off what thy look like on paper.

also, i don't think skaven are quite on par with LM. lizzies got their  saurus, indestructible TG, the engine, blade of realities, etc. they can shut down your magic pahse and whoop you in combat, and skinks will run circles around us without our old skirmishers.

I agree with carc's tier system. Skaven are no where NEAR the top of the teir list. Look at it this way: If you cheesed out an army each from DoC, WoC, Lizardmen, DE, VC and Skaven, I would bet that the skaven were the least cheesy (ironic that rats obtain the least amount of cheese, no?)

And dont underestimate WoC. Especially their magic phase, as Chaos players are spoilt for choice. They can either go character sniping buboes spell with max nurgle wizards (who needs a shooting phase when you can auto-wound any character on the table that you can draw LoS to with no targeting restrictions?), or else spam gateway spell with tzeench wizards.

I'd believe all that if WoC, you know, place in tourneys, ever. But, as it stands, they don't. WoC hasn't come close to an 'Ard Boyz title, it hasn't placed in GD Tourneys, nor has it placed in any of the significant GTs.

Just because an army looks good on paper and Warseer says its good doesn't make it good. The army suffers from costing way too many points per model. Chaos armor on core troops does not a good army make.

I won't continue to argue it though. If someone can produce some tourney results with WoC placing in the top three I'll reconsider.

And in regards to "how cheesy" is the list - that's not what matters. What matters is how well the list can perform. Skaven can produce on the table. That's what matters. Sure, is a Skaven army as obviously cheesy as a DoC list? No, but can a Skaven army beat that DoC army? Yes. That's how you evaluate an army on a tier system. Not on "how does it look on paper". Do Dark Elves look cheesier than Skaven? Certainly but a well played Skaven army can beat that same Dark Elf list, even when matched against an evenly skilled opponent.

To argue that - they can make a list that looks cheesy, therefore they tier higher - is ignorant of the game play aspects at hand. An army book is more than the sum of its parts. Its a using those parts to create a greater whole, the better the book allows the general to do so, the higher an army tiers.

Well, giving you results on WoC tournament placings will be hard outside of a GT event. GW in australia doesnt hold GT events anymore (though they do some minor sponsoring of other tourneys). I can tell you though, I was at the premier event for our state 2 weeks ago (basically, invite only tournament where the 16 "best" players of the state are invited, invites based on tournament rankings) and a WoC army came in 2nd (the only WoC army at the tournament).

And I do think the cheese factor on paper is relevant to how hard an army can be. I would almost gaurentee that if you gave an absolute cheese maxed out list to a brilliant army general from, say, dark elves, and then built the absolute cheesiest list from the skaven army and gave that to a carbon copy of said brilliant general, then the dark elves would win. Why? Because when it comes to item combos and unit combos, several other races come out on top over the skaven. Our units/magic items just dont stack up to what you can do with other races. Sure, we can be competitive, but we dont have the absolute "item 1 + item 2 + unit 3 = auto win" combinations that other races have.
You kids these days have it so easy, what with your Plague Furnaces and your Hellpit Abominations and your Bonebreaker Warlords. Back in MY day, all we had was Slaves and Clanrats!...and auto-hit Ratling Guns...and skirmishing Jezzails...and 2D6 Warp Lightning...and Lead From The Back...wait, what was my arguement again?
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I_ated_Warpstone
Grey Seer
chieftainskritchskritch
Nov 24 2009, 10:02 PM
I would almost gaurentee that if you gave an absolute cheese maxed out list to a brilliant army general from, say, dark elves, and then built the absolute cheesiest list from the skaven army and gave that to a carbon copy of said brilliant general, then the dark elves would win. Why? Because when it comes to item combos and unit combos, several other races come out on top over the skaven. Our units/magic items just dont stack up to what you can do with other races. Sure, we can be competitive, but we dont have the absolute "item 1 + item 2 + unit 3 = auto win" combinations that other races have.

This bit is hard to discuss but I disagree. I've played a very competitive Skaven army against the runner up of the 08 Fantasy Ard Boyz who was using DoC and won. The dice roles were very much so average and both my opponent and I played good games. One of the fantastic things about the new book is were are equipped quite well to deal with some of the cheesier aspects of the armies above us. Doomwheels for example absolutely roflstomp large targets. We can also negate a great deal of regeneration and we're quite well equipped for handling opposing magic phases. These are the things I feel are neglected when you look at "the cheese factor".
Skaven Tournament Performances
Battle for the Block - Best General
4th Quarter RT - Best Overall
Rumble in Jackson - Best Overall
Toys for Tots Charity Tourney - Best General
1st Quarter RT - Best Overall
Gamerz Depot Tourney - 1st Place

"Hassle, annoy, aggravate, whatever it takes to not engage in a fair fight"
Tournament players are people too
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chieftainskritchskritch
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The Freshmaker

I_ated_Warpstone
Nov 24 2009, 10:11 PM
chieftainskritchskritch
Nov 24 2009, 10:02 PM
I would almost gaurentee that if you gave an absolute cheese maxed out list to a brilliant army general from, say, dark elves, and then built the absolute cheesiest list from the skaven army and gave that to a carbon copy of said brilliant general, then the dark elves would win. Why? Because when it comes to item combos and unit combos, several other races come out on top over the skaven. Our units/magic items just dont stack up to what you can do with other races. Sure, we can be competitive, but we dont have the absolute "item 1 + item 2 + unit 3 = auto win" combinations that other races have.

This bit is hard to discuss but I disagree. I've played a very competitive Skaven army against the runner up of the 08 Fantasy Ard Boyz who was using DoC and won. The dice roles were very much so average and both my opponent and I played good games. One of the fantastic things about the new book is were are equipped quite well to deal with some of the cheesier aspects of the armies above us. Doomwheels for example absolutely roflstomp large targets. We can also negate a great deal of regeneration and we're quite well equipped for handling opposing magic phases. These are the things I feel are neglected when you look at "the cheese factor".

I suppose its all subject to opinion. In my opinion, domwheels dont smash large targets because their random movement + having to shoot whatever is closes to them means stuff like dragons, hydras, etc can avoid them relatively easily.

As for opposing magic phases, i also think we're weak. The only way to gain magic res for a unit is to take a bell.furnace, and we dont have any anti magic items outside of scroll and staff of sorcery.

But like i said, subject to opinion.
You kids these days have it so easy, what with your Plague Furnaces and your Hellpit Abominations and your Bonebreaker Warlords. Back in MY day, all we had was Slaves and Clanrats!...and auto-hit Ratling Guns...and skirmishing Jezzails...and 2D6 Warp Lightning...and Lead From The Back...wait, what was my arguement again?
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Darkminion



I think it is a bit too early to rate this. Our skaven have yet to put the other Tier armies to the test. The way I look at it now is that skaven have many ways to handle units/situations that were considered cheese or broken before.

I mean, what Skaven general would be afraid of ASF blackguard? And then the unkillable DE lord on dragon. Not so unkillable anymore in my opinion. Pump some str 2, no armor save on him and that pendant is rubbish.

So lets play a few more games and enter some tourneys, and then we shall see.
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Seerlord OmNomNom
Clanrat
Well, I always tiered armies based on how mean it is if you make it as cheesy/beardy as possible....I'm talking straight up evil cheddar stroking his evil twin goatee.

From what I've been seeing around the way, from a scale of demons at an A+ and ogres at an F, Skaven seem to be coming in at around a B-. Lets face it, they join the trend of new rule books of opening it up and suddenly going "that will be in every army", but the skaen being hindered by lacking magic tiems and a the fact that mentioned thing will easily not work/kill your army instead keeps them back.

That being said, WoC should be ranked a lot higher than it's being given here. You have to be a real jerk with the list, and it's certainly no demons (though oddly good against them compared to higher tier armies, but I've seem some truly evil lists out there. I think thier around middle iter along with skaven.

Also, Orc and goblins need more credit, they certainly don't belong on the bottom with ogres and beasts.

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