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Tier system; and us
Topic Started: 24th November 2009 - 03:37 PM (752 Views)
Ace0fskulls
Stormvermin
ok, we all know the ranking system with tiers, however im yet to see where peopel think the new skaven are.

IMO skaven are now just below dark elves but above high elves (generally fourth down on most lists)
because:
* Horde army NOT subject to aminosity
* Lore of plague and ruin are nasty
* Abomination and doom wheel are solid but a little unreliable
* Artillery is nasty when it hits)
* Exlpoding Slaves
* Massive range of trrop types optimises versitility ( genuinly many skaven army list builds)
* Auto-hit templates, often ignoring saves
* toughness tests are teh new killing blow
* furnace puts out many attacks

However they are sometimes still unreliable, clan eshin sucks and there is no really 'pure cheese' unit. This IMO puts them high....but not top tier, however they can defio hold thier own against teh big 3.

Whats your opinion?

A0S
'Even through the darkest days, This fire BURNS, always'
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I_ated_Warpstone
Grey Seer
If I were to provide a current tier system it would go as such:

Demons of Chaos
Dark Elves / Vampire Counts
Skaven / High Elves / Lizardmen
Wood Elves/ Brettonians / Empire / Dwarfs
Beasts / Ogres / Orcs and Goblins / Tomb Kings / Warriors of Chaos

I don't think the Skaven book is quite as good, in its written potential, as either Dark Elves or Vampires but I certainly feel like its on par with High Elves and Lizardmen. With that said, I feel like Skaven can hold their own with the top three with a proper army list and good generalship.

Skaven Tournament Performances
Battle for the Block - Best General
4th Quarter RT - Best Overall
Rumble in Jackson - Best Overall
Toys for Tots Charity Tourney - Best General
1st Quarter RT - Best Overall
Gamerz Depot Tourney - 1st Place

"Hassle, annoy, aggravate, whatever it takes to not engage in a fair fight"
Tournament players are people too
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Sammy the Squid
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Back to retirement!

To be honest Id drop HE down one and raise Warriors of Chaos up one. But thats personal gaming experience...

Also, are DE really that bad? I know they can be cheesed up real easy, but would they really be up there with VC? Ive only played around 4 games with the new DE book and won all of them, but they were mostly against HE, to which DE have a natural advantage. They are tough, and hatred on the Hydra and Dragon is extremely busted, but overall is their list that bad?
I hate that, because the main reason I started DE was for the challenge. Now if they are that powerful, the challenge is gone... :(

Besides that, I think you've got the Skaven spot on in placement. They can be busted up real easily, but they also have the potential to take a very balanced force which is great fun to use...

- Sammy
"If the squidman can't do it, no one can!!"

Wins/Losses/Draws

Skaven Clan Rattenkrieg - 108/58/20
Dark Elves - 44/14/8
Hochland Empire - 33/14/4
Malkavian Vampires - 23/22/4
Beastmen - 50/25/2

Have not completed a Painting Vow since July 07!!
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I_ated_Warpstone
Grey Seer
Sammy the Squid
Nov 24 2009, 11:25 AM
To be honest Id drop HE down one and raise Warriors of Chaos up one. But thats personal gaming experience...

Also, are DE really that bad? I know they can be cheesed up real easy, but would they really be up there with VC? Ive only played around 4 games with the new DE book and won all of them, but they were mostly against HE, to which DE have a natural advantage. They are tough, and hatred on the Hydra and Dragon is extremely busted, but overall is their list that bad?
I hate that, because the main reason I started DE was for the challenge. Now if they are that powerful, the challenge is gone... :(

Besides that, I think you've got the Skaven spot on in placement. They can be busted up real easily, but they also have the potential to take a very balanced force which is great fun to use...

- Sammy

I could agree with the movement of both WoC and HE they're both personal play style armies.

In regards to Dark Elves, yeah they're busted. Lord with Reverse Ward Save on Dragon, 2 Hydra, Minimum Dark Rider Core, First Turn Charge Assassins(shade trickery), Ring of Hotek (magic phase? lolno), Free Power Dice, Black Guard with ASF. I could go on naming all the bulls**t that they're capable of pulling off readily. However, you can still play a really fluffy Dark Elf army that is challenging yet capable of winning games.

My Dark Elf army is(as could be expected of me) extraordinarily cheesy. With that list I've consistently beaten both DoC and VC. I've just as consistently lost to them but its a very tough game.
Skaven Tournament Performances
Battle for the Block - Best General
4th Quarter RT - Best Overall
Rumble in Jackson - Best Overall
Toys for Tots Charity Tourney - Best General
1st Quarter RT - Best Overall
Gamerz Depot Tourney - 1st Place

"Hassle, annoy, aggravate, whatever it takes to not engage in a fair fight"
Tournament players are people too
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Ace0fskulls
Stormvermin
as a DE player i can tell you that DE have some pure cheese.....

*unbreakable ASF black Guard
*Hydra
*ring of hoetek ( any spell cast or targeted within 12'' of user miscast on double)
*Pendent of koeleth (Reverse ward save based on strength)

the list is quite long haha
'Even through the darkest days, This fire BURNS, always'
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Bibamus
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Grey Seer
don't forget cold one kinghts with hydra banner
It would be ugly to watch people poking sticks at a caged rat. It is uglier still to watch rats poking sticks at a caged person.


13th spell casts: 2 Kills: 32 Grave Guard,1 Vampire Lord
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Sammy the Squid
Member Avatar
Back to retirement!

Yeh, I guess you're right... I have purposefully steered away from all that crazy-powerful stuff because my gaming group are social gamers, so my list comprises mostly of Warriors, Corsairs, Cold Ones (I LOVE the new models!!), and generally lighter infantry. I used Black Guard a few times and they killed everything without hassle. I do hate the rules for the Executioners though, they are rubbish for their points... :(
You both forgot the Witch Elf Queen that can get something like 10 s10 attacks! I had to read those rules through a few times before I believed them! :P

- Sammy
"If the squidman can't do it, no one can!!"

Wins/Losses/Draws

Skaven Clan Rattenkrieg - 108/58/20
Dark Elves - 44/14/8
Hochland Empire - 33/14/4
Malkavian Vampires - 23/22/4
Beastmen - 50/25/2

Have not completed a Painting Vow since July 07!!
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Ace0fskulls
Stormvermin
like i said, the list is loooooooooooong, let us not foeget the fact DE have army wide hatred

anyway this isnt about crafty, dark elf-things, its about superior skaven things haha

however, ive played a couple of mock battles (me controlling both armys) and at 500pts ive played 3 battles......and skaven have had 3 solid wins, obvisuly ive not tested teh DE cheese vs our cheese, but maybe....just maybe, weer on par with DE....im yet to play VC too and i reckon we could hold them back...just!
'Even through the darkest days, This fire BURNS, always'
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carcharoth
Member Avatar
Slayer of Lizardmen
IMO, it goes like this;

daemons
VC/DE
LM/WoC
Skaven/HE
WE/dwarves/brets/empire
OG/OK/TK/BoC

skaven nowhere near top tier IMO. crap items, crap SCs, crap stormvermin, crap eshin.
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I_ated_Warpstone
Grey Seer
carcharoth
Nov 24 2009, 03:37 PM
IMO, it goes like this;

daemons
VC/DE
LM/WoC
Skaven/HE
WE/dwarves/brets/empire
OG/OK/TK/BoC

skaven nowhere near top tier IMO. crap items, crap SCs, crap stormvermin, crap eshin.

WoC - really? That army is bottom or close to bottom tier easily.

Also - Skaven are easily on par with the current Lizardmen book. The books are pretty fair comparison in many ways. But honestly WoC? I can't get over that - WoC is a for the lulz tier army. They don't win national or regional tourneys, they've performed laughably at GW sanctioned events. They're just a bad army.
Skaven Tournament Performances
Battle for the Block - Best General
4th Quarter RT - Best Overall
Rumble in Jackson - Best Overall
Toys for Tots Charity Tourney - Best General
1st Quarter RT - Best Overall
Gamerz Depot Tourney - 1st Place

"Hassle, annoy, aggravate, whatever it takes to not engage in a fair fight"
Tournament players are people too
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carcharoth
Member Avatar
Slayer of Lizardmen
WoC have some really powerful special characters, and crazy high AS from that chaos armour stuff of theirs. i've also heard their magic is potent as well.
admittedly, i've only faced them once, so i'm mainly going off what thy look like on paper.

also, i don't think skaven are quite on par with LM. lizzies got their saurus, indestructible TG, the engine, blade of realities, etc. they can shut down your magic pahse and whoop you in combat, and skinks will run circles around us without our old skirmishers.
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UnderTheEarth
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Grey Seer Scabrac
Heres my opinion

Daemons (ya, of course they are at the top, no contest)
De + VC
Lm-Woc-he-Skaven (skaven are basically on the same level..if not slightly higher then lizardmen thanks to their horde+unbreakable and awesome shooting)
We (very good for still in sixth...) Dwarves empire
Brets, OG and ogres

( ive played woc with my we, granted, he was a noob, but he DID bring wulfrik, who, go ripped apart by my dryads like the rest of his army :))
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chieftainskritchskritch
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The Freshmaker

carcharoth
Nov 24 2009, 05:04 PM
WoC have some really powerful special characters, and crazy high AS from that chaos armour stuff of theirs. i've also heard their magic is  potent as well.
admittedly, i've only faced them once, so i'm mainly going off what thy look like on paper.

also, i don't think skaven are quite on par with LM. lizzies got their  saurus, indestructible TG, the engine, blade of realities, etc. they can shut down your magic pahse and whoop you in combat, and skinks will run circles around us without our old skirmishers.

I agree with carc's tier system. Skaven are no where NEAR the top of the teir list. Look at it this way: If you cheesed out an army each from DoC, WoC, Lizardmen, DE, VC and Skaven, I would bet that the skaven were the least cheesy (ironic that rats obtain the least amount of cheese, no?)

And dont underestimate WoC. Especially their magic phase, as Chaos players are spoilt for choice. They can either go character sniping buboes spell with max nurgle wizards (who needs a shooting phase when you can auto-wound any character on the table that you can draw LoS to with no targeting restrictions?), or else spam gateway spell with tzeench wizards.
You kids these days have it so easy, what with your Plague Furnaces and your Hellpit Abominations and your Bonebreaker Warlords. Back in MY day, all we had was Slaves and Clanrats!...and auto-hit Ratling Guns...and skirmishing Jezzails...and 2D6 Warp Lightning...and Lead From The Back...wait, what was my arguement again?
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Bibamus
Member Avatar
Grey Seer
either gateway or the nurgle -remains in play wither- are deadly spells, if spammed it can take any unit out without much effort, and no ammount of scrolls will get you through it.
also the AS2+ WS4 S/T4 A2 chaos warriors, even tough expensive, pack quite a punch, they got that nasty warshrine aswell, just to name a few, imo WoC should not be taken lightly
It would be ugly to watch people poking sticks at a caged rat. It is uglier still to watch rats poking sticks at a caged person.


13th spell casts: 2 Kills: 32 Grave Guard,1 Vampire Lord
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I_ated_Warpstone
Grey Seer
chieftainskritchskritch
Nov 24 2009, 08:39 PM
carcharoth
Nov 24 2009, 05:04 PM
WoC have some really powerful special characters, and crazy high AS from that chaos armour stuff of theirs. i've also heard their magic is  potent as well.
admittedly, i've only faced them once, so i'm mainly going off what thy look like on paper.

also, i don't think skaven are quite on par with LM. lizzies got their  saurus, indestructible TG, the engine, blade of realities, etc. they can shut down your magic pahse and whoop you in combat, and skinks will run circles around us without our old skirmishers.

I agree with carc's tier system. Skaven are no where NEAR the top of the teir list. Look at it this way: If you cheesed out an army each from DoC, WoC, Lizardmen, DE, VC and Skaven, I would bet that the skaven were the least cheesy (ironic that rats obtain the least amount of cheese, no?)

And dont underestimate WoC. Especially their magic phase, as Chaos players are spoilt for choice. They can either go character sniping buboes spell with max nurgle wizards (who needs a shooting phase when you can auto-wound any character on the table that you can draw LoS to with no targeting restrictions?), or else spam gateway spell with tzeench wizards.

I'd believe all that if WoC, you know, place in tourneys, ever. But, as it stands, they don't. WoC hasn't come close to an 'Ard Boyz title, it hasn't placed in GD Tourneys, nor has it placed in any of the significant GTs.

Just because an army looks good on paper and Warseer says its good doesn't make it good. The army suffers from costing way too many points per model. Chaos armor on core troops does not a good army make.

I won't continue to argue it though. If someone can produce some tourney results with WoC placing in the top three I'll reconsider.

And in regards to "how cheesy" is the list - that's not what matters. What matters is how well the list can perform. Skaven can produce on the table. That's what matters. Sure, is a Skaven army as obviously cheesy as a DoC list? No, but can a Skaven army beat that DoC army? Yes. That's how you evaluate an army on a tier system. Not on "how does it look on paper". Do Dark Elves look cheesier than Skaven? Certainly but a well played Skaven army can beat that same Dark Elf list, even when matched against an evenly skilled opponent.

To argue that - they can make a list that looks cheesy, therefore they tier higher - is ignorant of the game play aspects at hand. An army book is more than the sum of its parts. Its a using those parts to create a greater whole, the better the book allows the general to do so, the higher an army tiers.
Skaven Tournament Performances
Battle for the Block - Best General
4th Quarter RT - Best Overall
Rumble in Jackson - Best Overall
Toys for Tots Charity Tourney - Best General
1st Quarter RT - Best Overall
Gamerz Depot Tourney - 1st Place

"Hassle, annoy, aggravate, whatever it takes to not engage in a fair fight"
Tournament players are people too
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