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Shroud of DD vs. Under-Empire; Thoughts?
Topic Started: 17th November 2009 - 01:31 AM (882 Views)
Lixit
Crazy Canuck
So the quesiton is "what'ya rather?"

The banner of Dripping Death or the Banner of the Under Empire?

I ran a couple of quick calculations & I was suprised that unless there's a ward save (Demons for example) the Shroud of Dripping Death is better.

The number are fairly close & it comes down to 2-3 S3 hits with no armour save vs. the randomness of 2D6 hits w/ armour save...

What do you take?
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kizzlesticks
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Pick-up 'Sticks
Here is my take on it:

Dripping Death- Against heavy knights and infantry with their reliance on armor this is gold. Its higher strength also allows it to be more effective on toughness 4 models. On the downside you're only ever going to get 3 hits tops with it as hits everything in base contact with the bearer, not the unit. However you know which models these hit, which according to some people means less attacks coming back at your BSB. (This is something that I'm not 100% sure of, and will read the BRB to clarify it for myself).

Banner of the Underempire- More useful against units such as goblins and other things with low toughness and little to no save to speak of. Against anything with toughness 4 or greater or with a half decent armor save it is much less useful. This banners synergy with wither is probably worth noting. On the plus side it hits every unit in base contact with the unit the bearer is in, not just in base contact with the unit, allowing you to hit two units with a big enough frontage/careful charge placement, or can be a nasty surprise for any units that hit you on the flank.
Also, its a free advertising banner for this site :P


(Mutate: as for which I'd rather, my initial vote goes to the Banner of the Underempire.)

Later!
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Pestilent Lord
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I'd rather have the Shroud of Dripping Death. Of course, I play alot of dwarves, Even the maximum 12 S2 attacks aren't much good against T4, 3+ AS units. At least the Shroud can be expected to kill 1 per turn.
:o I just thought of something... Throw this thing into a unit then slam that unit into a Stegodon. You could clean off the skink crew almost instantly.
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brirob1113


sorry pestilent lord but the shroud would only inflict one hit on the stegadon model which would then be randomized.

I use both banners in my storm vermin, the shroud being on my bsb and the under empire on the SV standard bearer. I like the shroud on my bsb because it limits the number of attacks on him since its hitting models directly touching him. I have played against dark elves and highelves and i have had moments where both banners will kill the whole enemy front rank before they can attack. If i had to pick one banner, I would pick the shroud of dd. i have found when going against stronger enemies like lizardmen temple guard, it actually has a chance of doing a wound whereas the other one wont.

*Though to note about the banner of the under empire, is that it inflicts 2d6 on each enemy in contact with the unit containing the banner, not in bsb with the banner itself. i had my storm vermin charged on both flanks (low pursuit roll) and the shroud killed enough from both the sides that i actually won combat.

I think both of the banners are amazing and I take them instead of the overrated storm banner (only because i think it is one use only).

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hakoMike
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More grey every day.
Banner of the UnderEmpire.... for the name only.
So old. So so old.
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Kariko83
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Pestilent Lord is actually correct as it is not a shooting attack as it is done much like the gas from censers, doing one auto hit to each model in base contact. In combat you are considered to be in base contact with both the mount and riders/hero otherwise only the mount could attack. The BotUE on the other hand would randomize as it is distributed as shooting.
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chieftainskritchskritch
 
Do you think, that every time a Plague Monk pees, he takes a S2 hit?
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reddogfish77
Grey Seer
hmmm that give me an idea for the BotUE. would work well with a stormvermin unit but in a different way...

OOOOCBBBKOOOO
OOOOMBBBFOOOO
OOOOSBBBSOOOO
OOOOSBBBSOOOO
OOOOSBBBSOOOO

- O is blank space
- C is stormvermin champ
- B is the bell
- K is stormvermin standard bearer (carrying banner of dripping death)
- M is musician
- F is BSB with BotUE
- S is standard stormvermin

idea is you cant target a units SB so he will always be there to cause wounds. but at the same time you can cause wounds with the BSB without him ever getting into combat... and if someone charges in the flank you have heaps of stormvermin to fight and the banner to do damage while the unit is unbreakable... not a bad hammer unit eh...
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Kievien
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Chieftain
reddogfish77
Nov 17 2009, 05:44 PM
but at the same time you can cause wounds with the BSB without him ever getting into combat

Just one bit that kinda wrecks this idea...
BSB's don't work when their in the second rank...
Nice and snaeky thinking though :)

Grtz. Kiev
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reddogfish77
Grey Seer
they do if they are forced there... if you cannot for some reason fit a character in the front rank then they must go in the second... but you still get the advantages that they bring... this was my understanding...
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Kievien
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Chieftain
I don't have a rulebook on me right now, but I had a discussion about this earlier and somebody pointed it out to me that BSB's do not confer ANY abilities when in the second rank, even when forced to.

In my case it was a BSB with Sacred Standard in a unit of Stormvermin with full command and a 20 x 20 mm Warlitter. Could you perhaps point out a page where it says that BSB's may use their abilities from the second rank? :)

Grtz. Kiev
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Kariko83
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Nope the BRB specifically mentions characters can not use magic items, like the banner, if they are not in the front rank. I can search the page number up for you if you want as this was discussed in another thread a few days back.

-EDIT- Page 73, second paragraph, second sentence to be specific.
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13th Spell Times Cast: 8 Kill Counter: 14 Maraders, 38 Saurus warriors, 8 high elf bowmen, 20 Empire Handgunners and 14 Dwarf Handgunners

WIP Abomination Thread
Skaven in 7th ed: a WIP tactics article By Kariko83

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chieftainskritchskritch
 
Do you think, that every time a Plague Monk pees, he takes a S2 hit?
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Kievien
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Chieftain
Darn. And here I was hoping again to STILL be able to hide away my BSB legally.
Aaah well... Ill just have to use other tricksie things. Thanks for the clarification.

Grtz. Kiev
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Kurdush
Clanrat
Well, I have only played one game with the new Skaven so far, but my thought was to have Banner of the Under Empire in a large unit of Stormvermin pushing the Bell, since they are unbreakable and the banner inflicts automatic hits on all units in base contact with the unit carrying the banner. If you end up being flanked or rear charged, you still have a decent chance to cause serious damage to the enemy units.

SoDD is in my opinion better for the BSB, who has to be placed in another unit. AS was mentioned, it grants him some chance to escape being pounded to pulp by heavily armoured opponents.
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bakfire the experimenter
graduate of the school for dangerous inventions
verminous valour would mean that if you refuse a challange and end up at the back you can still use your bsb.... i took both with a unit of plague monks..... the plague monks got flanked by a small unit and the banner of the under empire killed the flanking unit.....

combine this banner with wither.......

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reddogfish77
Grey Seer
yeah i was wrong... :( sucks... though you can still do it with some manouvering... turn the screaming bell to present a flank to enemy. let them charge make sure your bsb is on unengaged side of front.
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