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| Wither and summoning | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 16th November 2009 - 12:05 PM (734 Views) | |
| kizzlesticks | 16th November 2009 - 12:05 PM Post #1 |
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Pick-up 'Sticks
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Say I successfully cast wither on a unit of undead summonables (skeletons in this example). Now in their magic phase they use their raising ability on that unit, adding new models to the unit. Wither effects "all the models in the unit". My question is: does it effect the new models that are raised? Or do you somehow have to keep track of the different toughness skellies in the unit? Or does it mean something else entirely? Thanks for your answers in advance! Later! 'Sticks |
Woomba: The Hypherion Incident-OOC
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| Lord Lughtigern | 16th November 2009 - 01:12 PM Post #2 |
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The Mad Ratter.
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I would imagine that, as the rules state "all models in the unit" and the new skeletons are added to the unit, that they would have the decreased stats as well. VC players should know when to give up on a unit of Skellies!
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| Black Death | 16th November 2009 - 02:32 PM Post #3 |
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Dead-Eye Squeekish
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This is one of the more debatable rules that need to be FAQed. Based on the strict wording of the spell: The target of the spell is "a unit" The spell affects "all models in the unit" Therefore, all models in the unit are affected by each stack of the spell, including the summoned skeletons. Unfortunately, this also means that if the heroes/lords leave the unit, they are no longer affected. Thoughts? |
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| Pestilent Lord | 16th November 2009 - 03:08 PM Post #4 |
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Doomwheel Driver
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I think it would effect the skeletons raised into the unit. I can see it now: Skaven: "I cast wither on your Skeletons." VC: "Great, now my skeletons have osteoporosis." |
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“A player is never late, Dave. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when the plot dictates he should.” Skaven 7th: W/L/D 6/5/2 High Elves: 2/3/1 | |
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| krosanreaper | 16th November 2009 - 05:30 PM Post #5 |
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Death Master Casey
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Half to go with this for now. So, if a lone character gets hit and joins a unit he would wither that unit. A little strange but... |
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<span style='color:green'>Mmmmm warpstone <span style='color:black'>Warp lightning to the face | |
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| kizzlesticks | 16th November 2009 - 10:44 PM Post #6 |
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Pick-up 'Sticks
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Following this logic, a lord/hero joining a withered unit would catch the wither as well? Later! 'Sticks |
Woomba: The Hypherion Incident-OOC
I'm back, and here to stay! | |
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| krosanreaper | 17th November 2009 - 12:00 AM Post #7 |
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Death Master Casey
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Temporarily yes. As soon as the character leaves the withered unit he get his toughness back (I think). And same for a unit joined by a withered character (if that works). |
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<span style='color:green'>Mmmmm warpstone <span style='color:black'>Warp lightning to the face | |
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| warlord warptail | 18th November 2009 - 09:54 AM Post #8 |
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I wouldn't call the spell a lasting effect so each casting is a one time instant removal of toughness. So if a unit is withered then any summoned models have the same stats as the unit at the time and any character remains at the reduced toughness for the rest of the game and leaving/joining units has no effect. He can't escape it and he can't spread it. |
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| bakfire the experimenter | 18th November 2009 - 11:05 AM Post #9 |
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graduate of the school for dangerous inventions
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i think you may be slightly confused.... if it was a remains in play spell thn any charcter joining a unit who have had wither cast on them would then loose some toughness and if they left the unit regain it.... wither how ever is not a remains in play spell so any models present in the unit at the time of casting will have their toughness reduced permanently.... if the character leaves the unit then he is still at the reduced toughness.... however for things like skellies any new ones raised into the unit would be at their normal toughness as they were not present at the time of casting..... nija'd by warlord warptail (it took me too long between starting to write the post and actually posting it... damn you work!!!) |
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| Glod-Unbaraki | 18th November 2009 - 11:18 AM Post #10 |
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Low King of PIODT
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Surely not Backfire, (not the characters, I agree with you on that) The unit as a whole would have the reduced toughness for the rest of the game. In fluff terms wither has in many ways damaged the spell which is keeping the unit alive so any skellies which "join" it would be as weak as the rest. Or even that the skeletons that are being summoned are from the weak corpses of the ones already dead ![]() You can't class the joining of characters as the same idea as adding skellies. Chracters exist as an entity in their own right, the skilles on the other hand are just bolstering the unit. Otherwise the VC player would be able to negate the effect of wither completely. All they'd have to do is cast summoning once and the toughness reduced members would be the ones that always die first and the ones with the original toughness would be fighting in the front rank... Just my thoughts, -Glod |
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| bakfire the experimenter | 18th November 2009 - 11:44 AM Post #11 |
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graduate of the school for dangerous inventions
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there is an assumption that you are always rasing the already dead skellies..... what if you raise more than were in the original unit or raise more than were there before wither was cast?? surely these new skellies (in fluff they may have come from the dead of your own army) wouldnt be reduced toughness as they werent there when wither was cast.... as to a vampire player nullifying the effect by raising then yes to a certain extent its true but i would call him every cheating ******* under the sun if he declared that the reduced toughness ones were now at the back (obviously excluding command who have to go to the front) however i would have no problems with him placing the normal toughness ones at the back of the unit (i would probably face them the other way around so that its easy to keep track of them) i dont see that you can have the rule both ways so that characters remain effected if they leave but so do new things added to the unit..... |
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Daniel cannot possibly exist in a dimensional state. Recent studies show that people who have attempted to comprehend Daniel have either disappeared, died spontaneously, or driven themselves into a pertinent state of insanity and/or catatonia. <img src="http://www.heresy-online.net/daemons/adoptables/23041.gif" alt="Broken Adoptable Image" /><br><a href="http://www.heresy-online.net/daemons/levelup/23041-dark-whisper.htm" title="Level up this Daemon!">Level up Adoptable!</a> | |
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| Boilrot | 18th November 2009 - 11:45 AM Post #12 |
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As you can cast wither on a "unit" multiple times, i would think that this only affects the models in the Unit at the time of casting, the fact that for newly summon units you would have to keep track of the toughness for a number of models would be no different to keeping track of wounds in a mixed unit such as rat orges, packmaster and master moulders. The problem then becomes if you shoot or attack the unit which Toughness are you trying to wound, i would randomise the hits for example a unit of 10 T1 skellies and 5 T2 skellies i would be 1-4 for a T1 and 5-6 for a T2. With Regards to character's i think the that if they are in the unit at the time they are withered, if they leave the unit they are still withered, if a character joins the unit after the casting, he wouldnt be affected. I dont really see anything in the rules, that says this is continuing effect in the sense that it lurks around to wither new models joining the unit, i read the effects as its a permant lose of toughness for the duration of the game for models in the unit at the time....if its continual effect as your sugguesting does that mean it can be dispelled in another magic phase? I take the permant effect for the models in the unit at the time, rather than argue the dispel point |
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| bakfire the experimenter | 18th November 2009 - 11:59 AM Post #13 |
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graduate of the school for dangerous inventions
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Boilrot - good to see im not alone in my thinking... as to the shooting thats a good question...... i think i would have to take into account the posistion of the models firing.... if the reduce toughness ones are in the front and im shooting from the front then these would be wounded.... if i was at the back then i would be the others that would be wounded... if that makes sense |
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Daniel cannot possibly exist in a dimensional state. Recent studies show that people who have attempted to comprehend Daniel have either disappeared, died spontaneously, or driven themselves into a pertinent state of insanity and/or catatonia. <img src="http://www.heresy-online.net/daemons/adoptables/23041.gif" alt="Broken Adoptable Image" /><br><a href="http://www.heresy-online.net/daemons/levelup/23041-dark-whisper.htm" title="Level up this Daemon!">Level up Adoptable!</a> | |
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| reddogfish77 | 18th November 2009 - 01:38 PM Post #14 |
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Grey Seer
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sorry guys... the answer is right in front of you... the unit is affected... it doesnt say that certain models in the unit just the unit... therefore regardless of models raised all models in the unit will be affected. |
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| bakfire the experimenter | 18th November 2009 - 02:24 PM Post #15 |
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graduate of the school for dangerous inventions
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i keep going over this and im beginning to change my mind... a unit is as was stated a unit no matter how many more you raise into it......... the rule says the unit is affected and as the fluff says it is a sickness so all new models would catch the illness from the surviving ones so the unit is affected as are any characters present at the time...... even if they then leave the unit . .. ... .... |
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Daniel cannot possibly exist in a dimensional state. Recent studies show that people who have attempted to comprehend Daniel have either disappeared, died spontaneously, or driven themselves into a pertinent state of insanity and/or catatonia. <img src="http://www.heresy-online.net/daemons/adoptables/23041.gif" alt="Broken Adoptable Image" /><br><a href="http://www.heresy-online.net/daemons/levelup/23041-dark-whisper.htm" title="Level up this Daemon!">Level up Adoptable!</a> | |
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