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Packmasters within Gt Rat units
Topic Started: 13th November 2009 - 12:10 AM (388 Views)
Skavendrool
Chieftain
According to the 'Whip' rule (p. 53), packmasters can whip over a couple of ranks of Giant Rats. So I assume that they'll set up in the fourth rank of Giant Rat units.

The question is then, how are casualties treated? Assuming that the unit is engaged to the front, casualties die from the front rank, but are generally removed from the rear rank. With the packmasters in the middle of the unit, this becomes a problem. If the casualties are removed from the front, there seems no way for the packmasters to move back into the middle of the pack (well, reform would do it I suppose). As giant rats die, the packmasters will slowly move toward the front of the unit, which is NOT a place they want to be. This movement will also limit the effect of the 'Wave of Rats' special rule, as packmasters move forward into the second rank.

If casualties are removed from the back, opponents may complain, as it is in their interest to kill the packmasters.

In 6th edition, I glossed over the issue. Since the packmasters could whip over any number of ranks of giant rats, the packmasters were always in the back of the unit. So removing casualties simply meant removing the rearmost giant rats.

Any thoughts?
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Skaven Lord Vinshqueek
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Bunny ear says flop

Well, I'm wondering what the exact issue is right now...

Yes, when your opponent from a frontal charge kills Giant Rats, you take casualties (read: Giant Rats) from the rear rank. As they can't hit the Packmasters, these remain standing in the rank they are in... Yes, eventually, they come within reach of the enemy, but that's something you can't really stop.

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s'nkeep
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Ajax = warpstone juice

on a related note: a tactical question...
in large packs of say 25, is it worth taking the full 5 packmasters,
or maybe 2 or 3 and a master moulder would be plenty

can smaller packs survive with just a master moulder?
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Warlord Itik Slashgnaw
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Clanrat
for packmasters to get their attacks in 7th ed they need to be in the 4th rank.

say u have 5 ranks of giant rats with with packmasters in the fouth rank and giant rats in the 5th rank. is this legal? feels wierd having giant rats behind packmasters, esp. after the last edition.

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Skavendrool
Chieftain
>Well, I'm wondering what the exact issue is right now...

I guess that I did not explain it very well. Picture a unit of 25 giant rats and 5 packmasters:

r r r r r
r r r r r
r r r r r
p p p p p
r r r r r
r r r r r

When the unit is engaged to the front and takes casualties, it is actually the front models that die. For convenience we usually remove models from the rear rank instead. When the unit is homogenous, it makes no difference. Unfortunately now with the giant rat unit, it isn't homogenous. So, suppose the unit above takes 10 casualties. It should look like:

r r r r r
p p p p p
r r r r r
r r r r r

Note that the packmasters have unwillingly moved forward in the unit. The question is, how do they resume their proper position in the fourth rank? A reform is the only way that I can figure.

Skavendrool
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Yobtar
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Grey Seer - Summoner of Verminlords
I would remove the Giant rats first from the rear as the packmasters are not in base to base combat and so cannot be attacked but can attack with the whip.

I would continue removing rats until the packmasters are in base to base combat because the packmasters would keep moving to the rear and let the rats fight because all skaven know that the rear of the unit is the best place to be.

So in your example of

r r r r r
r r r r r
r r r r r
p p p p p
r r r r r
r r r r r

just remove rear ranks of giant rats first then remove rats in front of packmasters until packmasters can actually be attacked.

Of course this doesnt apply to impact hits or shooting as casualties from those are resolved randomly per the Armybook.
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mrtn
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Swashbuckler
Yobtar, I can't see a reason that would be legal. You remove models killed in the front, always. I know most people remove from the back, as that's simple, but it isn't right.
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Pestilent Lord
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Well, the rules discuss that the models in the rear step forward when the unit takes casualites. I see no reason to say that the Packmasters don't just crack a whip at the rear-rank rats to get them to move ahead between them and the enemy. Actually seems like exactly what a Skaven packmaster would do.
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CapAmr05
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Quote:
 
Well, the rules discuss that the models in the rear step forward when the unit takes casualites. I see no reason to say that the Packmasters don't just crack a whip at the rear-rank rats to get them to move ahead between them and the enemy. Actually seems like exactly what a Skaven packmaster would do.


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Yobtar
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Grey Seer - Summoner of Verminlords
Pestilent Lord
Nov 13 2009, 09:30 PM
Well, the rules discuss that the models in the rear step forward when the unit takes casualites. I see no reason to say that the Packmasters don't just crack a whip at the rear-rank rats to get them to move ahead between them and the enemy. Actually seems like exactly what a Skaven packmaster would do.

Thats what i was trying to say but didnt get it in print correctly.

Yes i know what I wrote doesnt abide to the rules word for word but what in the skaven book actually does nowadays?
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Skavendrool
Chieftain
>Actually seems like exactly what a Skaven packmaster would do.

:) Yes, in fluff terms. And in a friendly game, that is of course the way that I'd play it. But I can just imagine some rules-lawyer at a tournament quibbling that the packmasters should be moving forward as the front-rank rats die. And technically they'd be right, I fear. So I was trying to think of a way to handle the situation within the 'rules as written'. Only way that I can think of is to reform the giant rats unit when the packmasters start getting too close to the fighting rank.

Of course the optimist in me would like to believe that GW will clarify the issue when they do an FAQ on where the Master Moulder goes in the unit. :unsure:

Skavendrool
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