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Best Hero/Lord choice + gear
Topic Started: 12th November 2009 - 08:41 AM (1,974 Views)
Nilax
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Nurglitch II

The grey seer on bell allows you to anchor your battleline with a solid, unbreakable unit. I've only tried him once so far, but when I did so I put him in a giant brick of clanrats with a mortar team and kept them in the center of my battle-line, but back.

There is no reason that the Grey Seer's unit must face whatever your opponent chooses to throw at him. You have decent range and clear LOS over everything. You can keep his unit behind another regiment, with hammer units to either flank.

As with anything else, if you manuver to engage the enemy on your own terms, you will do just fine.

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SkavenDan
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Doomwheel Fanatic
That is exactly what I did I moved mine so they would take a double chariot charge knowing they wouldn't be bothered by it.
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I_ated_Warpstone
Grey Seer
I run a Grey Seer with the following setup:

Grey Seer
-Screaming Bell
-Dispell Scroll
-Skalm

He provides one of my two scrolls, a solid ld 7 model, 4 power dice which is effectively 6 since he uses the 2 in the army pool, has skalm to account for weird wounds from miscasts or bad bell rings, and the bell provides invaluable bonuses to my blocks of clan rats.

I just cannot see a reason to take a Warlord other than points. The only way to generate the same 10 power dice that you get with a Seer + Casters is to go 3 casters for heroes and then you give up a BSB. Skaven NEED their BSB. All in all there isn't a dead killer Warlord combo that I've found and survivability isn't amazing. Especially when compared to the 4+ ward a seer on a bell gets. Skaven aren't an army of choppy boyz with ded ard armor who run around and beat people in a fight. Skaven win via trickery and overwhelming force and I feel the seer really embodies this.
Skaven Tournament Performances
Battle for the Block - Best General
4th Quarter RT - Best Overall
Rumble in Jackson - Best Overall
Toys for Tots Charity Tourney - Best General
1st Quarter RT - Best Overall
Gamerz Depot Tourney - 1st Place

"Hassle, annoy, aggravate, whatever it takes to not engage in a fair fight"
Tournament players are people too
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RE.Lee
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Rat Field Surgeon
Its the Grey Seer on a Bell for me - making a big, cheap, decently armoured unit (clanrats) unbreakable and fear-causing (I think a lot of people are forgetting about this) is easily worth the 200p. Reliability has proven to be the mark of tough armies and this is as reliable as Skaven get (no silly frenzy!).

Then theres the combat potential (impact hits and rat ogre are pretty solid), magic resistance, ward save and finally the bell ringing itself!

As for protection - I'll be using the old model, so thats less frontage giving less enemy models in base contact to attack the seer, 4+ ward and skalm should be enough - after all I'm not planning to stay in a fight for to long - pin down, flank charge, break, pin down next unit, flank charge, break...

Equipment will be 2xdispel, power stone, skalm.

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Tenoshii
Warlord
Using a smaller model in order to get a smaller base size is actually illegal. All models should have a minimum base size and it must be at least this big. The size of the Screaming Bell is mentioned in the book as 3-wide and 5-long in a unit of Clanrats so it needs to be at least this big.
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drrat
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Grey Seer
Personally i think the grey seer is the worst lord choice! That's why this game is great and why the army list is so flexible because it allows for different playstyles!

I hate the idea of anchoring my battleline around one huge unbreakable unit that a canny player will divert, ignore, and negate the effectiveness of.

I still maintain that the grey seer is vulnerable on that bell but tactically there is really only one way to play a seer on the bell. He can't move, and the bell unit is very cumbersome and affected by terrain. Incidentally, I am not sure that because the bell causes fear, the whole unit pushing them causes fear.

The pointsink is important because I would suggest that a warlord, HPA and doomwheel for example, gives you more options that a seer and bell and clanrat unit which are roughly the same points.

But if you want to play the stand at the back with your lord shooting spells at your opponent then the grey seer is the best option for this. You had better hope you get the spells you want....

:blink:
warpstone, more warpstone, yes-yes, more warpstone....
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RE.Lee
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Rat Field Surgeon
The book states it is usually 15 clanrats big - implying it could be of a different size. Its illegal to put a model on a base smaller than the one supplied with the model - if I have an older model I don't need to rebase it (same thing with the new and old HE dragon, I believe).

Drrat is right that its not the entire unit that causes fear, only the bell, but its still very useful! BTW, whats the US of the thing? 6+1=7? I'm planning on doing flank charges with rat ogres or aboms - that would give a fear causing US of around 13, should usually be enough after a round of vicious combat.
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Aldaris
Clanrat
RE.Lee
Nov 15 2009, 12:26 PM
The book states it is usually 15 clanrats big - implying it could be of a different size.

I think that's a courtesy towards the players who want to use the old model.
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Voff


Hello, just wanted to add my thoughts of lord choices for Skaven.

To make it short:

Vermin Lord - great but too expensive
Grey Seer on bell - great but too expensive
Grey Seer - great but too expensive
Warlord - great

But this is only for my Skaven armylist, so for others that can and want to afford VL and GS it's not a problem. This really is one of the best parts of the army, all lord choices are viable and worth bringing to the battle. And I think each of the lord choices will make for totally different Skaven armies. And I can't tell you how pleased I am with that. Coming from playing WoC the last year, where the only lord choice is a Sorcerer Lord and now dusting of my old Skaven army, where all lord choices seems viable is going to be refreshing to say the least.

And when it comes to the hero choices, I think they will reflect to some degree what the lord choice in the army is. Warlord armies might want to go 3 x level 2 route, GS lists might see Chieftain, 2 x Warlocks and so on. Of course this is me only guessing, there might be lists with Warlord and 3 Assassins.

I've played a couple of games with the new army and my lord + hero choices will probably look like this for the next few battles:

Warlord
- War Litter
- Blade of Corruption
- Enchanted Shield
- Skalm
- Rival Hide Talisman

Plague Priest
- Level 2, Flail, Plague Furnace
- Dispel Scroll
- Scrying Stone

Warlock
- Level 2
- Warp-Energy Condenser
- Doom Rocket

Warlock
- Level 2
- Dispel Scroll
- Pipes of Piebald

Total points for that is 844.

I'll let you know how this works out. :)

Just going to finish by saying a big Hello to everybody on this great forum, and although this is my first post here, hopefully it won't be the last. :)
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Nilax
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Nurglitch II

drrat
Nov 15 2009, 05:33 AM
I hate the idea of anchoring my battleline around one huge unbreakable unit that a canny player will divert, ignore, and negate the effectiveness of.

The bell is effectively a giant turret at the heart of that unit with an effective 360-degree line of sight. The majority of bell effects have a 12-24" zone of influence. Add to that the fact that the unit cannot be baited (unlike a furnace) and is not going to be fleeing off the table when its neighbors are wiped out and you have arguably the most difficult unit to divert and ignore in our army.

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drrat
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Grey Seer
I dont think the bell is that good for the points personally. I also think that unit is very large and cumbsersome and strongly affected by terrain. Not to mention that you don't want to get it into combat. Also I just don't see it justifying its points outlay, it's not just the bell and seer you pay for but also the clanrats with a champion at the very least to protect the seer from enemy characters. It can easily be surrounded by skirmishers/flyers and pestered for the whole game or just obstructed with angled cheap enemy units. Personally, I like to play a dynamic army that doesn't stay still for long. I like outflanking and trying to outmanoevre my opponents. The bell and huge unit doesn't suit me.

I just look at what i can get in the army for the same points and can't see the reason to have the bell at all. The seer on his own is a little bit better, but splitting the magic decks has reduced his ability to get the spells you want him to have, and magic is inherently unreliable.

Taking that all into account I don't rate him, particularly sinking more points to put him on a bell and have a big unit to push him around.

Having said all that, once I'm bored of my warlord build, I'm sure I will give him a go and maybe I will find a use for him.
warpstone, more warpstone, yes-yes, more warpstone....
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I_ated_Warpstone
Grey Seer
drrat
Nov 15 2009, 09:16 AM
I also think that unit is very large and cumbsersome and strongly affected by terrain. Not to mention that you don't want to get it into combat. It can easily be surrounded by skirmishers/flyers and pestered for the whole game or just obstructed with angled cheap enemy units.


The bell is no more affected by terrain than any other large infantry army. Also - how is the bell going to get surrounded? If you are playing a bell list you are going to be flanking said bell with a clan rat and slave unit on each side. I highly doubt my opponent is going to be able to somehow circumnavigate my army frontage.

You seem to have this idea that you can just "get around the bell". You can't. Its a 360 turret of lightning shooting death. It takes a mediocre block infantry army and turns it into a brick wall that your opponents will bounce off of.

I don't discount the warlord as a budget option, but the Bell is not some piddly unit that you can simply redirect. An understanding of battle line tactics shows that having a battle line supplemented by an assault weapon is a good plan.

I really don't mean to sound rude but you keep posting this "you can just redirect and out maneuver" trope and that's just not true. It doesn't work like a dragon or a big block of Black Guard. It functions in a way that is honestly unique to almost all of the Warhammer world, with the possible exception of our most hated rivals the Lizardmen and their Slann.

Understanding how to use a Bell is just as essential as gear choice and spell methodology if you want a bell to be effective.
Skaven Tournament Performances
Battle for the Block - Best General
4th Quarter RT - Best Overall
Rumble in Jackson - Best Overall
Toys for Tots Charity Tourney - Best General
1st Quarter RT - Best Overall
Gamerz Depot Tourney - 1st Place

"Hassle, annoy, aggravate, whatever it takes to not engage in a fair fight"
Tournament players are people too
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drrat
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Grey Seer
Quote:
 
The bell is no more affected by terrain than any other large infantry army. Also - how is the bell going to get surrounded? If you are playing a bell list you are going to be flanking said bell with a clan rat and slave unit on each side. I highly doubt my opponent is going to be able to somehow circumnavigate my army frontage.


Larger more cumbersome units are easier to outflank than small more manoevrable units. It can easily get surrounded by a good opponent using a refused flank tactic and wiping out the units that you will inevitable use to sit either side of the bell for example. Or with a flying or otherwise monster, units of flyers, skirmishers. Have you ever played a good DE or lizardmen player?

It is much more affected by terrain for two reasons. One, because the unit pushing the bell is wider, it can't go around terrain as easily. Second, it cannot move through terrain unlike other units because the bell takes damage from this.

Quote:
 
You seem to have this idea that you can just "get around the bell". You can't. Its a 360 turret of lightning shooting death. It takes a mediocre block infantry army and turns it into a brick wall that your opponents will bounce off of


You seem to have this idea that opponents will obligingly charge into the front of the bell unit with their most valuable unit. A good player won't do this. If he wants to take out the seer, he might charge in something to do this, but otherwise he may well just concentrate on the rest of the army. I also use high elves and I would love to face the bell. I would just charge a unit of 5 dragon princes into the front (that cost 150 points), kill the seer on the back and then I don't really care what happens to the dragon princes. Once the seer is dead, it is a big brick wall of irrelevance.

Also, it is not necessarily a 360 degree lightning turret. With the two spell decks, you may not get warp lightning. There is a one in three chance you will not get warplightning even if you concentrate solely on the one spell list which means no plague spells. That's assuming you cast it successfully and it doesn't get dispelled everytime.



Quote:
 
I really don't mean to sound rude but you keep posting this "you can just redirect and out maneuver" trope and that's just not true. It doesn't work like a dragon or a big block of Black Guard. It functions in a way that is honestly unique to almost all of the Warhammer world, with the possible exception of our most hated rivals the Lizardmen and their Slann.


You didn't sound rude. You are right, it is not like a dragon or black guard for a whole host of reasons. Those two units are far more manoevrable and effective. The difference between the temple guard block housing the slann and the bell unit is that you can't attack the slann in HTH because he is in the second rank. Also, the temple guard are actually good fighters. But in that unit the slann is afforded some protection and he can take items that protect him. The seer is much more vulnerable and the bell unit is much larger.

Anyway, I used the bell in 6th edition, but it gave so many advantages to the seer that it was worth the risk. Even then, after a while, I found the warlord build to be more effective. Now, the bell effects are worse, and the seer is more vulnerable, and less likely to get the best spells. Also the new mounts give the warlord another dimension. For those reasons, it's the warlord or vermin lord builds that are the best for me.....
warpstone, more warpstone, yes-yes, more warpstone....
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I_ated_Warpstone
Grey Seer
drrat
Nov 15 2009, 01:00 PM
Have you ever played a good DE or lizardmen player?


I regularly play Dark Elves, high elves, lizardmen, DoC, and VC. Those are the armies in my local meta. At this time, I've played 8 games with the new book. I am 2-0 against DE, 1-0 against HE, 2-0 against Lizards, 1-1 against DoC and 1-0 against VC. All of these games are with a Bell. Let's say I'm having some great deal of success making the large monster meta pay for their choice to attack the Under Empire. Those lists consist of what is generally considered the 'Ard Boyz quality. Dragons galore, mega magic phases, BTs with obsidian armor, skinks a plenty, high mobility frustrating lists.

Honestly at this point I'm just going to agree to disagree. You seem to literally dead set on refusing to acknowledge the capacity for damage the Bell has. I'm not going to sit here and try and convince you otherwise.

I'll simply say that I feel like the Bell is still the competitive choice dejour. I expect that the big tourney lists will still focus on dickery and trickery, not raw combat power. It is not what skaven do.

MUTATE - There is really only one decent mount choice for a warlord in a competitive scene and that's the litter.
Skaven Tournament Performances
Battle for the Block - Best General
4th Quarter RT - Best Overall
Rumble in Jackson - Best Overall
Toys for Tots Charity Tourney - Best General
1st Quarter RT - Best Overall
Gamerz Depot Tourney - 1st Place

"Hassle, annoy, aggravate, whatever it takes to not engage in a fair fight"
Tournament players are people too
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drrat
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Grey Seer
I could equally say that you haven't changed your view no matter what I have said. But this isn't a personal thing.

I have used both the seer build and the warlord build in the 15+ years I have been playing skaven, and I prefer the warlord build for the reasons I have given.

The warlord/VL build suits my style of play, and the seer build suits others. There is no right or wrong.

Let's agree to disagree as you say...
warpstone, more warpstone, yes-yes, more warpstone....
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