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Cheese Please; Q
Topic Started: 10th November 2009 - 12:46 AM (1,311 Views)
TheRatsWhoSayKnee
Stormvermin
There are alot of ppl at my bunker saying that the Skaven aren't cheesy any more. Is this true? If not please post the cheesiest list possible.
May 2 Hellpits, whatever it is bring it on.
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war-seer kindari
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TheRatsWhoSayKnee
Nov 9 2009, 07:46 PM
There are alot of ppl at my bunker saying that the Skaven aren't cheesy any more. Is this true? If not please post the cheesiest list possible.
May 2 Hellpits, whatever it is bring it on.

ok wait, so your asking us to create a cheesy list for you, without trying to yourself?
Renewal is good
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==Me==
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TheRatsWhoSayKnee
Nov 9 2009, 05:46 PM
There are alot of ppl at my bunker saying that the Skaven aren't cheesy any more. Is this true? If not please post the cheesiest list possible.
May 2 Hellpits, whatever it is bring it on.

There's no such thing as a cheesy army, it's merely a label poor players assign whatever beats them in an attempt to excuse their ineptitude.

That said, the Skaven book is certainly competitive and has a lot of viable builds. I'd say it's quite good.
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Polymphus
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Black and White again
Quote:
 
There's no such thing as a cheesy army, it's merely a label poor players assign whatever beats them in an attempt to excuse their ineptitude.


Ctrl+V strikes again! :rolleyes:

But seriously, if you really want to give Skaven players a bad name by writing up a cheese list, do it on your own damn time. It's been noted in the past that the UE has had little tolerance for cheese in the past and I don't think anything's changed since then.

Polymphus is too busy and/or lazy to update song of the week this week. Stay tuned!
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Skaven Lord Vinshqueek
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Bunny ear says flop

I think the main question here is whether the Skaven have a less competitive (read: cheesy) build then was possible in the 6th edition. Let's keep the discussion on that question.

No posting of 'the most cheesy armylist', nor rants on the fact that people who post such lists are evil/ lame/ whatever. (As in: The first one that starts flaming gets an angry Vinz against him/ her).

*moves to General Skaven Discussion*...

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Warlord Snickers
Stormvermin
Who wants to play cheese anyway? If i don't like someone to the point I would actually bring cheese...I'd just as soon not play.
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Chieftain Quickitt
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Clanrat
Well, if you really want it, I could bring you some sick list, but what's even the fun of playing that?
Darn Skaven addiction..., darn money shortage...
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krosanreaper
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Death Master Casey
The most cheesy Skaven list is the one with cheddar for standards, Limburger condensers, and Gouda tokens.

But seriously, it's probably the hit to shooting and ratling guns that would make people say they are less cheesy. No more locking them in combat with clanrats and blasting away with ratling guns that auto hit. You can shoot into slaves, but slaves aren't likely to stay around long in combat.

As far as a list, anything with 2 hell pits or 2 furnaces is going to be hard to deal with.
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==Me==
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Chieftain Quickitt
Nov 10 2009, 09:39 AM
Well, if you really want it, I could bring you some sick list, but what's even the fun of playing that?

It's a challenge, a test of your skill as a general. Why even build army lists if the goal isn't to make a solid force to win with. Tiddlywinks is cheaper and I hear there's no cheese :P

Quote:
 
Who wants to play cheese anyway? If i don't like someone to the point I would actually bring cheese...I'd just as soon not play.


I'd much rather give my opponent a fun and challenging game than disrespect him by assuming he is incapable of handling anything I can throw at him. Training wheels aren't fun.

Quote:
 
But seriously, if you really want to give Skaven players a bad name by writing up a cheese list, do it on your own damn time. It's been noted in the past that the UE has had little tolerance for cheese in the past and I don't think anything's changed since then.


I'd much rather be a strong player and help my opponents improve themselves and myself than give Skaven players a bad name by assuming my opponent can't beat my best so I dumb down for them.
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Polymphus
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If I absolutely had to, I'd say something like this is going to get a lot of tournament play.

Grey Seer, possibly on bell
2 Plague Priests w. furnace, magic upgrades
Minimum Slaves
Small unit of naked clannies if the bell shows up
2 Plague Monk units (for the furnaces)
2 Censer Bearer Units
2 Abominations

Simple really. Hammer and Anvil with an extremely powerful magic phase to boot.

But I don't encourage it. A good general can win with any army. If you can beat Necrons with Nob Bikers it's no testament to your skill at all. If you can beat nob bikers with necrons, then you're an amazing general and deserve a pat on the back. Also, cheese lists aren't fair on people who can't afford the latest uber unit. I'm a uni student, and I can't afford to get a trio of screaming bell kits. Also also, it doesn't really fit with the fluff. Look at plagueclaw catapults: a pretty poor rare choice all things considered, but I'd use them in a straight pestilens army because they fit the theme. Using two abominations in an army without any other moulders just isn't fluffy.

Poly
Polymphus is too busy and/or lazy to update song of the week this week. Stay tuned!
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tdet
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==Me==
Nov 9 2009, 09:01 PM

There's no such thing as a cheesy army, it's merely a label poor players assign whatever beats them in an attempt to excuse their ineptitude.

That said, the Skaven book is certainly competitive and has a lot of viable builds. I'd say it's quite good.

do you also play daemons?
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deathmaster riddick
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Polymphus
Nov 10 2009, 12:10 PM
If I absolutely had to, I'd say something like this is going to get a lot of tournament play.

Grey Seer, possibly on bell
2 Plague Priests w. furnace, magic upgrades
Minimum Slaves
Small unit of naked clannies if the bell shows up
2 Plague Monk units (for the furnaces)
2 Censer Bearer Units
2 Abominations

Simple really. Hammer and Anvil with an extremely powerful magic phase to boot.

But I don't encourage it. A good general can win with any army. If you can beat Necrons with Nob Bikers it's no testament to your skill at all. If you can beat nob bikers with necrons, then you're an amazing general and deserve a pat on the back. Also, cheese lists aren't fair on people who can't afford the latest uber unit. I'm a uni student, and I can't afford to get a trio of screaming bell kits. Also also, it doesn't really fit with the fluff. Look at plagueclaw catapults: a pretty poor rare choice all things considered, but I'd use them in a straight pestilens army because they fit the theme. Using two abominations in an army without any other moulders just isn't fluffy.

Poly

agree with the list. i'd throw in giant rats for flanking, another plague priest, and maybe some weapon teams, but that's just me.(not saying giant rats are cheese, just saying they're pretty darn useful).

also agree with the can't afford the latest uber unit theory.

one thing i noted about that list. i don't have the new book, but from what i've gathered about it, that list is a couple hundred short of 2000. so you've got a little wiggle room, but at the same time. if you didn't build the list, you probably haven't considered how to use it, and you're probably not going to be any good.

speaking of 'competitiveness', i believe my signature applies here. if you want to be competitive go play daemons.

on a more general level. i think our magic phase is cheesy, aboms are cheesy, bells as well, furnaces are a little suspect, and censor bearers are a little suspect as well. i can see people mis-using the bell, furnace, and censor bearers so that they are useless(or just kill themselves), but the abom and our magic is just frightening. against an army with little to no shooting i think a VL is cheesy too(it'll cut through anything except maybe a giant CR block).
The best way to configure an army is to go play demons.-Nevamore Posted on Nov 6 2009, 04:02 PM

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Polymphus
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Black and White again
Censor Bearers are a funny one. In the old army book I used to insist they were the best smashy unit available. They're the only unit I've seen consistently turn back charges from big heavy cavalry units and they hit hard enough that 6-7 can take a ranked unit down on their own. People took WLCs and thought they were so powerful, but like I predict the doomwheel to be, they're unreliable and gimmicky more than anything. They were popular though, and thus PCBs never saw use. GW saw people not using censor bearers and thought they must be underpowered, so they switched them to special and removed the plague monk requirement. They're one of those weird units that doesn't look good on paper but is fantastic in practice. Now they're not competing with WLCs people are going to start realising that.

I predict we'll be seeing a lot of them in cheesy lists to come.
Polymphus is too busy and/or lazy to update song of the week this week. Stay tuned!
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Kevlar
Doomwheel Driver
Polymphus
Nov 10 2009, 12:53 PM
Censor Bearers are a funny one. In the old army book I used to insist they were the best smashy unit available. They're the only unit I've seen consistently turn back charges from big heavy cavalry units and they hit hard enough that 6-7 can take a ranked unit down on their own. People took WLCs and thought they were so powerful, but like I predict the doomwheel to be, they're unreliable and gimmicky more than anything. They were popular though, and thus PCBs never saw use. GW saw people not using censor bearers and thought they must be underpowered, so they switched them to special and removed the plague monk requirement.

I predict we'll be seeing a lot of them in cheesy lists to come.

I agree. I think a lot of tournament lists will be pretty generic. 2x monks with furnace, 2x censers, 2x abominations. That will cover 90 percent of the special and rare slots you will see.
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==Me==
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Polymphus
Nov 10 2009, 10:10 AM
If I absolutely had to, I'd say something like this is going to get a lot of tournament play.

Grey Seer, possibly on bell
2 Plague Priests w. furnace, magic upgrades
Minimum Slaves
Small unit of naked clannies if the bell shows up
2 Plague Monk units (for the furnaces)
2 Censer Bearer Units
2 Abominations

Simple really. Hammer and Anvil with an extremely powerful magic phase to boot.

But I don't encourage it. A good general can win with any army. If you can beat Necrons with Nob Bikers it's no testament to your skill at all. If you can beat nob bikers with necrons, then you're an amazing general and deserve a pat on the back. Also, cheese lists aren't fair on people who can't afford the latest uber unit. I'm a uni student, and I can't afford to get a trio of screaming bell kits. Also also, it doesn't really fit with the fluff. Look at plagueclaw catapults: a pretty poor rare choice all things considered, but I'd use them in a straight pestilens army because they fit the theme. Using two abominations in an army without any other moulders just isn't fluffy.

Poly

2 big baitable blocks, frenzied skirmishers, no shooting, very concentrated in 2 lynchpin units. It looks nasty, but that's far from ubeatable.

The better general will win, but it also stands to reason that the better general will also field a better army, since he understands what works and how to use it properly. Nob Bikers is a horrible build, completely one-dimensional and easily countered, though Necrons would have a tough time of it (what with no vehicles, very little S8+ shooting and not many expendable units).

I'm a uni student too and I doubt I'll be able to grab more than 1 bell kit, so I'll work around that and make something else up. If you really wanted to, popsicle sticks and balsa wood would give you some cheap Furnaces :P There isn't one list to rule them all, just the one that works best for you. Limiting somebody's options because of what you think is acceptable doesn't seem fair.

Quote:
 
do you also play daemons?


Mostly in 40k, but I'll break them out for Fantasy from time to time. It's a lot of fun to play a low model count, reliable army very unlike my Skaven. Your point?

Quote:
 
speaking of 'competitiveness', i believe my signature applies here. if you want to be competitive go play daemons.

on a more general level. i think our magic phase is cheesy, aboms are cheesy, bells as well, furnaces are a little suspect, and censor bearers are a little suspect as well. i can see people mis-using the bell, furnace, and censor bearers so that they are useless(or just kill themselves), but the abom and our magic is just frightening. against an army with little to no shooting i think a VL is cheesy too(it'll cut through anything except maybe a giant CR block).


If you want to be competitive, play competitively. If you don't want to be competitive, go play Candyland and leave us be.

Our magic is strong, but we have nothing to avoid miscasts, Abominations cost an arm and a leg and go down do any flaming attacks, Bells are expensive mounts for expensive characters and leave the Seer open to getting sniped out in assault, Furnaces are expensive mounts for armorless, expensive characters and they suffer from Frenzy (flank the unit and watch the Furnace gas your unit to death), Censer Bearers are Frenzied skirmishers in an army with 3 other skirmishing units (2 of which are also a Special choice, the other is a non-expendable swarm). How can you mis-use a unit? Did I miss something in the rules where I have to handicap myself? If your army doesn't have shooting and gets chomped by a Verminlord, maybe you should field some shooting next time (that's rather obvious, yes?).
Your friendly neighborhood powergamer.

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