| Evaluation of weapon teams in 7th edition?; Thoughts or impressions from the vets? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 7th November 2009 - 01:23 AM (560 Views) | |
| Silverback | 7th November 2009 - 01:23 AM Post #1 |
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Clanrat
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OK, so having sorted through the weapon teams in the new book I have some thoughts and am curious to know what others are thinking about them. Most of them right off seem to have pretty serious odds on misfire of becoming a large template of death so I think that weapon teams have to placed and positioned very carefully in case they explode. I know with all skaven stuff a certain ammount of ratricide is unavoidable but I think it really hurts the value. Being a move or fire and with the addition of having having to roll to hit I think the Ratling gun has deteriorated signifigantly as an anti personel weapon. 3 dice should only yield 9 shots, maybe 5 hits, and 3 wounds against T3 troops, but with a 33% chance of misfire. I question the value for the points. That said, I do think having one somewhere behind your battle lines and a bit away from your troops can be super useful for hosing down scouts, and checking those pesky high elf eagles. It's weaknesses are somewhat offset by the fact that you can roll one at a time, thus a roll of 5-6 might be enough for you to simply leave it at one or two dice, significantly lowering the misfire chance. Like everything else, the plague mortar is a real hazard on misfire to its parent unit but it's potential lethality and ability to move and fire might make it quite good. I'd still be inclined to get it away from anything too valuable incase it implodes. The WFT also seems like too much risk to me for what it is and i think is way too expensive. Again though one in the rear might be quite good at cleaning out scouts from woods and such. I'll add more as I have a chance to tinker with the other weapons. |
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| ==Me== | 7th November 2009 - 04:07 AM Post #2 |
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I miss ==My== Bell
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I haven't got any practice in and I'm still getting back in to Fantasy, but here's ==My== initial thoughts. Ratling Gun: Nerfed like crazy, but still has a use for whittling down units. If you want this to nail Skirmishers, good luck (unless you can manage to charge them with Slaves). WFT: Nastier now that there are no more partials. Cheaper too, buff. Doom Flayer: ==My== favorite, if only in name. It's like a reliably Fanatic and makes pretty much any block unit capable of doing damage if this bad boy hits a flank. Poisoned Wind Mortar: Move and fire stone thrower, why even field PWGs any more? Awesome. Warp Grinder: Adds some punch to your tunneling teams. |
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Your friendly neighborhood powergamer. Check out ==My== blog: Blackjack & Hookers | |
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| Warlord Snickers | 7th November 2009 - 06:35 AM Post #3 |
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Stormvermin
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First off, 3 dice will yield an average of 10.5, not 9. Next, I played 5 games today testing the new rules and the new weapons and I'll break down my findings here: Ratling gun...barf. Let's move on. It's the retarded older brother of the next weapon that rocks socks. Doom flayer! This team is possibly the second, or first, best of the weapons systems. I prefer the WFT but I'll get into that here in a second. This nasty piece of equipment is going to throw out an average of 10 auto (3.5 avg on a d6 times two for the arty dice with the D3 impact hits rolling an average of 3-4 on the dice, yeilding 2) str4 hits on the charge. The range will be 3-13. And they are automatic. Oh yea it has a 3+ AS to the front too. And in every combat is does an Arty dice worth of AUTO str4 hits. At init4. For 55 points, who would ever take a ratling gun over this dandy? Yea, this guy has to get into CC to be effective, but with M5 that will happen quite readily. Seeing as it is not a shooting weapon, I rate it just slightly, and I am seriously saying the smallest of margins, below the WFT. I love the new WFT. I loved the old one too, but now it is really sick. With the new template rules this thing, if shot at the right target, will hit around 12 in an infantry unit with 20mm bases. The smallest number I got today was 6. Insane. With the save of the target being -2 and the damage output being D3 from a magical flaming template causing panic...this weapon will do the job 95% of the time. It has a slightly heftier price tag, but well worth the cost. The plague mortar looks super on paper, but in practice the scatter rolls killed it's effectiveness. Same with having to guess the range. It's a nice weapon and people very good at guessing ranges, go for it. No armour saves is really nice, but for those less able to gauge distances I'd steer clear of this weapon. Most of the time, the WFT is going to be just as good...and for only 5 more points. The warp grinder adds the ability to tunnel on the unit but once it comes up out of the ground...this thing falls apart for the point you spend. But if you need tunnelers you will be using this piece of junk for the whopping cost of 60 points. Ick, night runners and gutter runners are teh fail. I'd just use their special rules if I was going to use them at all. I'll be taking 2 WFTs and 1 Doom Flayer in every game I play
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| Sammy the Squid | 7th November 2009 - 12:06 PM Post #4 |
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Back to retirement!
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To be honest I dont have such a problem with the Rattling Gun. Last edition they were busted like crazy, and I think they have made the right move to change it so you have to roll to hit. It is actually a balanced machine now, and still has its uses, albeit different to before. Last edition it could mow down practically an entire regiment in one round, but now I think its better suited to targeting support units such as Fast Cavalry and Detatchments. While it may kill less overall, it is best to make these kills as valuable as possible, so take out those units that can really harass the main Clanrat blocks... Oh, and large targets. I can see Rattling Guns being a new favourite for taking them down... WFT's? They are finally worth it. Probably a tad too good for their points now, but it seems just wrong for GW to get everything balanced right... <_< The new weapon teams? Havent read the rules properly and dont plan to. Im a fan of the 'old-school' skaven things, and am staying away from most of the new stuff. I will stick to the old faithful toys that have fought so well for me all these years! And I refuse to play with the Abomination, but thats a whole new story... <_< - Sammy |
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"If the squidman can't do it, no one can!!" Wins/Losses/Draws Skaven Clan Rattenkrieg - 108/58/20 Dark Elves - 44/14/8 Hochland Empire - 33/14/4 Malkavian Vampires - 23/22/4 Beastmen - 50/25/2 Have not completed a Painting Vow since July 07!! | |
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| Skaven Lord Vinshqueek | 7th November 2009 - 01:20 PM Post #5 |
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Bunny ear says flop
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Got the book today ( ), but no games yet, so my response will be based on the theoretical approach for the moment...WFT: Same rules, a little better misfire chart, though with the revised rules for attached units and the somewhat lower cost it's definitely a better choice then in the 6th edition. Ratling Gun: Basically, what was expected, no longer auto-hit. Somewhat lower cost as well. I will expect to see less of them, or either MUCH more to compensate for having lost auto-hit. Doom-Flayer: Looks nice on paper, but I'm not too impressed. It's nice as a flanking machine, but in the front it's got the tendency to be either devestating, or absolute rubbish. (Seeing the types of infantry units other 7th edition armies have nowadays, I'd vote the latter). Poison Wind Mortar: I actually quite like this one. Despite the fact that I'm not that grand with stone throwers, I do like the fact that it's a long-ranged death globe... However, as said, the increased scatter can make this an unreliable piece of weaponry as well, so not on the top of my list in the end. Warp Grinder: No more Gutter Runners tunneling, but LOADS of Night Runner tunneling... Yes, it is more expensive, but it gives the opportunity to get a lot more markers on the table then before, which is enough to scare the hell out of my opponents. ![]() Greetz |
In the Horned One we trust, all others we monitor. ![]() Skaven track record [W/D/L] @ 17th of August, 2014: BB 34/19/55; MH 9/2/6; WHF 17/8/30 | |
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| Warlord Snickers | 7th November 2009 - 03:20 PM Post #6 |
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Stormvermin
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I agree with you Sammy, the abomination is just that to my conscience. I do NOT see myself taking this cheddar ball. |
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| mrtn | 7th November 2009 - 04:15 PM Post #7 |
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Swashbuckler
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Not the same rules. If all partials are now automatic hits (which I've been led to believe ) then that increases the number of hits by a third at least (rough estimate). Say you shoot at a unit and get a good hit. 2 totally covered and 8 partials. In the last book that meant 5 hits statistically, now it means 10.
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Eight Chicky Bits, is that a Chicky Byte? Warhammer Fantasy Mod 2.5 for Civilization III Conquests My Southland Beastmen and Mortals Fingers are like onions, if you cut them, you cry Living by Stockholm Rude Time (GMT +1) Make your own Chaos Warrior My Skaven Army My Nurgling Army | |
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| Pestilent Lord | 8th November 2009 - 05:43 AM Post #8 |
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Doomwheel Driver
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You heard right. Even on a near total overshoot the Warpfire Thrower can do some impressive damage now. |
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“A player is never late, Dave. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when the plot dictates he should.” Skaven 7th: W/L/D 6/5/2 High Elves: 2/3/1 | |
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| C57Black | 8th November 2009 - 06:13 AM Post #9 |
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Warlord
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I've played a few matches proxing up each of the Weapons teams for games. -MVP has gone to the Warpfire thrower who has managed to earn his points back in every game, just remember to take two and don't be too upset if one goes boom. -the Doomflayer comes in a close second not so much because of his attacks (I only ever seem to do a handful of wounds with the thing) but because of the awesome armour save and ward save it gets, the common joke now is that my Doom flayer is too horrible to die since it always outlives my Abom. -Mortar team is decent but I'm not great with stone throwers so these things give me a hard time, but it will seriously wreck blocks of troops if you can get a direct hit. (I still think I can taste the tears of that Warriors of Chaos player) -Ratlling guns are decent just don't expect to get 8 or 9 wounds anymore, they do usually about 3-4 per fire if they survive the intial volley. |
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| Silverback | 8th November 2009 - 08:33 PM Post #10 |
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Clanrat
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Played several games yesterday and this morning. So I will concur with most of what is here already with some caveats. Ratling Gun: Yeah in its old role it is worthless but I did find it very useful on several occasions for mowing down great eagles, giving pause and sometimes a lead enema to scouts, smacking fast cavalry around (1-2 deaths usually is enough to panic them) and in one case simply denying an area because someone didn't want to get shot up. WFT: Yes, this thing is awesome. I mowed down too much stuff to list with it. I did have misses too, and against armies like chaos with limited or no shooting I moved it away from the parent unit so when it blew up it didn't take a pile of clanrats with it. Doom flayer: Is worth every bit of its points once it gets into combat. I have started attaching it to 25 stormvermin to give me a very respectable hammer unit. Warp Grinder: As stated pretty weak sauce on it's own although the ability to drop 15 night runners behind the enemy has been a game winner for me. Since they are no longer skirmishers you can hit a gun crew and even if you whif you win, you can deploy them wide enough that if two gun crews are close by each other you can charge both, or one with the runners and one with the grinder. I managed to get a small enough scatter to hit a DE reaper with the night runners and the grinder hit the second one without breaking the coherency rule. Saved me a lot of grief. Plague Mortar: I'll have to agree with what was said about it looking good on paper but not performing in game. I am pretty good at guessing ranges and still found it to be mediocre at best. I can see where in a big game having 2-3 of them and launching a barage each turn against one high value target might be nasty but its really not worth it under anything less than ideal circumstances. Even when it is doing well, it pales in comparison to the Flayer and WFT. |
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), but no games yet, so my response will be based on the theoretical approach for the moment...




) then that increases the number of hits by a third at least (rough estimate). Say you shoot at a unit and get a good hit. 2 totally covered and 8 partials. In the last book that meant 5 hits statistically, now it means 10.

