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| Where did it all go wrong?!? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 13th September 2009 - 11:30 AM (832 Views) | |
| outbreak | 14th September 2009 - 03:55 AM Post #16 |
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Warlord
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If the people you game with play highly competetive then i think 7th ed would be no fun. The guys i play with are casual and now and then may take a beefed up list but they will usually say "hey i'm trying out this list and it's cheesy i won't normally use it" which i don't mind. Casual gamers should aim to make a list that's fun for both players. |
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| BilboBaggins | 14th September 2009 - 04:19 AM Post #17 |
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I carry a list for one of my armies that I call "There is nobody I hate enough to put this list against them list." I've joked about going against one kid I've known for years (played him in LotR and Warhammer) and even at his worse he never got me angry enough to use that list. It's printed out. It's 2000 points. It's from SOC (Slayer Army) 1 Dragon Slayer 6 units of 10 troll slayers 18 Doom seekers (3 per unit of troll slayers) I should have used it against the power gamer and his VC army today, I might have had a chance. I knew ahead of time he was a power gamer but I went with my normal calm Slayer list (only 4 Doomies) that gives fair games against most opponents. My opponent doesn't play balanced lists, 14PD at 2k is over the top. Manfred is INSANE in a friendly game. Then he says his other version of the army is nastier because of the Zombie Dragon. |
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| Ratarsed | 14th September 2009 - 06:39 AM Post #18 |
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Grey Seer
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My Warhammer gaming goes back to the start of 4th edition and I've never been annoyed, outraged or ticked off yet. Well the odd niggle comes up from time to time but never enough for me to feel the game/hobby has been ruined. The secret is to get together with a small group of dedicated, like minded friends and play the game the way you like. Create backgrounds and characters with a history for your armies. Take part in narrative campaigns where a pitched battle is a rareity rather than the norm. If I was stuck with only tournament type games I think I may have left the hobby by now or I would just be looking forward to the next overpowered broken army I could come up with. As it is this Thursday I will be engaged in a rearguard scenario with my Empire Army, trying to give The Duchess a chance to escape with the gold she looted from Chaqua. Dr Oktar, a Master Engineer is the poor soul entrusted with this suicidal task. Can my 1000 points hold of enough of the Lizarmens 2000 points long enough to give the Duchess enough time to escape? We shall see. If he fails the Duchess will have to make a Last Stand, If he succeeds she and the other characters in the expedition will be making a "Flight to Safety" with anyone carrying gold severely slowed down. Exciting isn't it Ratarsed |
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| blader4411 | 14th September 2009 - 06:41 AM Post #19 |
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The New Lunar Republic!
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That is exciting ![]() As has been said, the playing style of those involved is just as important, if not more important than the armies involved. -Killfang |
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| GreyLord | 18th September 2009 - 12:31 PM Post #20 |
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I agree with alot of whats being said here and to be honest it is a testement to see that atleast some people realise like the rest of the world warhammer is now goin to S4h7. TBH i am not one of the people to moan and shut up when my book comes out i stopped playin my HE when the book came out cuz they not only, IMO, runined the general feeling of the elves but also went aginst 3ed of fluff (eg.yeah suddenly dragons not so rare anymore WTF?). I could have carried on playing them pimping out my army and beasting every mother hubbard to cross me but wats the point. To me its not about the general power creep of armies, although that does bug me, my main problem is the general way warhammer is going. They are just cripling the soul of the game, yes i agree atm the game is still playable but ultimatly if it carries on 'progressing' as it is the game will be runined with another ed. The worst thing about it all is Gamesworkshop wont change until/unless every one stops buying it. The problem is then they will go bankrupt and no warhammer anymore .@Bladder, I agree the skills of a gamer have a great effect on the game but despite this more and more rules and units are coming out making rolling dice (the random/luck part of the game) irrelevant. This to me means that armylists are eventually going to determine the wins at tournaments and the like (as tournaments have a general attendance of 'good' players). Agree that moaning online is going to do little, but i have written letters and made phone calls but until more people start doing this then yes me cussing on here is useless, so should i stop the debate? Stop playing warhammer because it is evident that they love 40k more than fnatasy? Stop typing becuase i have run out of things to say? |
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| Betterthenlife | 18th September 2009 - 03:04 PM Post #21 |
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Clanrat
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I think that all of us are missing the point of this, GW is at the end of the day a bussiness, and they are trying to make money. if the best way to do this is to make the game so simple and untacticle so that 5 year olds can play it then that is what GW will do. ok thats the reason now my opinion. i've only been playing for 2 years so i haven't played any other eddition of fantasy, but even i've seen that the game has turned into "lets see who charges first". all the slave baits and flank charges in the world can't save you from warriors with 4 attacks each. |
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"The casualties where in the order of ten to one in favour of the Dwarfs. Good, the fight was going unexpectedly well." Grey Seer Arqueek | |
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| GreyLord | 18th September 2009 - 04:13 PM Post #22 |
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@BTL I havn't missed that point. As i stated i am aware that yes they are a buisness but to survive by simplifying the game is not the way to make it. That will only draw in new players and make all the older ones stop playing or revert back to older editions, unless of course they simplyfied it for the better although to say its simplified is a bit 'wrong' as with all the countradictory rules now its more complicated than 6th ed, even after the million-and-one erratas and FAQs. I think you are right though that the problems have arrised in the last couple of years. I rember 4th edition and tbh it seriously out classes this edition. THATS RIGHT HERO HAMMER IS BETTER THAN 7TH EDITION . |
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| CapAmr05 | 18th September 2009 - 04:48 PM Post #23 |
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I've been playing for a while now, going all the way back to 5th edition, and the escalation of power is something that's been very noticable in this edition. Like an earlier poster said, you can throw tactics right out the window against certain WoC DoC and VC lists when, even getting a flank/rear charge on them, isn't enough to break/win the combat. When they have a unit that's 1200+ points on the table, unless you're lucky, nothing you can throw at it is going to make much of a dent. The best solution I've found is avoidance (or lead it off with trash units), since they typically protect that unit from Panic/ Psychology and might throw in regenerate, MR, etc from time to time. --Cap |
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Lonewolf Grand Tournament April 28-30 The Beer Phase Podcast Clan Skrittar | |
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| Swissdictator | 18th September 2009 - 06:36 PM Post #24 |
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Steampunk Engineer
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Part of the problem is they releasted two fear causing, unbreakable, tough armies back to back. If Daemons had been released a year later I think it'd have been less frustrating for people. I do think that as more books get updated to 7th it will level out. 7th is a shift from 6th edition. I started playing in 2005, once all 6th books were out. It was a good time, and things were fairly balanced. However there was certainly cheese out there. SAD, certain Chaos builds, certain Wood Elves builds, Bret RAF, Strigoi RAF, etc. It's the transition process that can be frustrating. We're moving past it... Skaven will be the point where we be around the 50% point for updates. With Skaven we'll have: 7th: O&G, Empire, High Elves, VC, DoC, DE, WoC, Lizards, and Skaven (9) 6th: Wood Elves, Dwarfs, Brets, Ogres, Tomb Kings, BoC, Chaos Dwarfs (8) You could argue the Orcs will be like the Dwarfs of the previous edition, as I could see them getting another book this edition. So it will get better as we move on. As the updates come out, I think there will be special challenges for VC and DoC so that they don't dominate quite as much. Dark Elves, while easy to break, can also be made fairly balanced too. Frankly I think DE are the best book of this edition as they can be very soft, very hard, or anywhere in between. This range of power is good, in my personal opinion. After that, it depends on the player. The thing that does irk me is the way they handle special characters. They no longer clearly state SC are "opponents permission only" and they are somehow seen as more acceptable. Certainly some can be fun (and are balanced like Luthor Huss or Bugman) or allow for themed armies (Throg, and the one DE witch). Still, I don't like the casual attitude towards them. This attitude has an effect on attitudes towards balance in list design, especially for new players. That's the main problem in my eyes. Thankfully I make a point of playing "Tough, but not a jerk" type lists. I'll be competitive, but it will still be an enjoyable challenge that you can deal with. In the end, when most or all books are updated, I think it will be much better. It will be different than 6th, no question. When 7th edition armies (that are not OTT) face each other... the games are fun. So, I suspect we'll be happier when that day arrives. We just need to be there for the new guys to learn "list building etiquette" so they know they can still have a tough list, without being cheesy... and have more fun as well. |
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Twisted, evil, treacherous, and diabolical rats wielding arcane technologies that are dangerous to foe and friend, that care not for their kin and are constantly plotting against each other. What more need I say about what makes Skaven cool? My Skaven Blog Updated November 29, 2009. 7:57 PM (-6 GMT) Have spare little rats from the old clanrats, current plague monks, corpse cart, or individual rats from the doom wheel? PM me. I want them. 30 more needed. | |
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| Sammy the Squid | 22nd September 2009 - 07:42 AM Post #25 |
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Back to retirement!
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Like many experienced gamers, I am disgruntled at the continuing trend towards overpowered armies. In my opinion, 7th ed is the best system of Warhammer yet, but the army books are just getting more and more powerful. While it doesnt affect me much, as I usually do gaming with a group of friends who are by and large non-power-gamers. When High Elves first came out, their list seemed busted as, with the whole ASF thing. But that has proved to be balanced, even against 6th ed armies. Some of the later stuff has just been insane though. Daemons, VC and Dark Elves are crazy powerful, and easily exploitable for power gamers as well. I have both DE and Vamps, and have tried to get balanced forces out of them. I have managed to some degree, but I still cant believe the power of some of their stuff (DE hand-bows, for example). Its not just that they have some overpowred things, but that others are so horrifically weak. I mean compare DE Black Guard and Executioners... The Executioners LOOK amazing, yet there is no way they are worth taking in comparison to other special choices... I actually enjoyed playing with my DE in 6th ed, but now they are just no fun. I dont think I have ever lost with them, and its just... dull... I dont find it fun at all really... I dont find Warriors of Chaos that powerful though. They can be exploited to be uber-tough, same as Lizardmen, but they still have definate weaknesses... Basicaly, 7th ed is awesome, army books are too powerful. Playtesting is neglected in favour of selling more models. Yet being a social gamer and not a tournament player, I am largely unnaffected, and Tournament play is fairly overpowered anyways... - Sammy |
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"If the squidman can't do it, no one can!!" Wins/Losses/Draws Skaven Clan Rattenkrieg - 108/58/20 Dark Elves - 44/14/8 Hochland Empire - 33/14/4 Malkavian Vampires - 23/22/4 Beastmen - 50/25/2 Have not completed a Painting Vow since July 07!! | |
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| bakfire the experimenter | 22nd September 2009 - 09:22 AM Post #26 |
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graduate of the school for dangerous inventions
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i have to agree that there are several over powered things in most of these new books.... and there are even more over powered combination's i have a vampire lord on a dragon however when i use this model (which isn't often) i only take 1 necromancer and/or a standard bearer (dependent on who i am facing) and i dont take any blood knights. i did build the grave guard death star unit once but when the game started i had all the elements scattered across the table in other units and it was only when archaon started eating units a turn that i pulled them into the same unit to take him on. the ring of hotec is horrible for a magic based army but then again it works against them as well. as has been mentioned the games workshop has to make the books interesting to get people to buy new armies. Its the players who inevitably make the power creep happen, if the dark elves players said well the ring and the inverse ward save are too powerful i will only use one of them then things would be different. i am expecting some horribly powerful combination's in the new book and if im honest i will probably use them at first but only against certain people who understand that im just testing new rules and new items. if i used them all against new players they will get the idea that this is what the game is about. we have one guy in my local store who always uses his tournament list and no one will play him. what i have found is if you want an interesting game without half of the overpowered characters just play a 1999pt game then there are no lords allowed, or play bigger / smaller games |
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Daniel cannot possibly exist in a dimensional state. Recent studies show that people who have attempted to comprehend Daniel have either disappeared, died spontaneously, or driven themselves into a pertinent state of insanity and/or catatonia. <img src="http://www.heresy-online.net/daemons/adoptables/23041.gif" alt="Broken Adoptable Image" /><br><a href="http://www.heresy-online.net/daemons/levelup/23041-dark-whisper.htm" title="Level up this Daemon!">Level up Adoptable!</a> | |
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. i'm ticked off too, especially because no one in my circle of friends has learned to play properly because they just bring an over-powered list. and there does seem to be very wide spread discontent. however, i can't help but feel that this is a cycle.
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