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Where did it all go wrong?!?
Topic Started: 13th September 2009 - 11:30 AM (833 Views)
GreyLord


Does anyone else feel like i do that Warhammer has been completly screwed by 7th Edition? Now don't get me wrong the rule book is probably one of the best versions so far of a compiled rule database for a gaming system. However despite this resonably big acheivment why have games workshop gona and F&^$ed up all the army books, except O+Gs, and then proceded to completly change fluff that has been 'official' for years to new fluff that makes no sense.

Is it me or does anyone just think that GW has gone beyond change for progress sake and have now just started fannying about with rules and armies that really dont need to be done? I'll take VC as an example.

6th Edition VC apart from several builds was a relitivaly balanced book, if you knew how to combat undead you could handle most armies they could throw at you. The fluff of the said book was also in keeping with fluff created back in 4th and 5th edition of the origions of the vampires even without directly mentioning Nagash's involvment. This was then represented in gameplay by the differing types of vampires (bloodlines) as well as the fact some armies could be solely necromantic. Now howeverr this is all gone and i just dont see why? Vampires are supposed to relativly rare, so WhyTF can you now field units of them as well as filling your character slots with them? Also why the weakening of Necromancers, it has always been that necromancers though not as intrisically linked with the necromantic arts could hold just as much power over them as vampires as they learned it quicker because of the fear of death, something vampires dont have as they have an eternity to perfect their skilld. This is only the beginning i could go on for some time as for all the new books.

Now ok this is not an argument per sa more of a WHY? i just do not get why gamesworkshop in this edition has completly hacked up everything from the last edition (whos books though not perfect by anymeans i think are a damn site better than this new edition) and fluff they have literally been building up for years.
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ChieftanSnikitch
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Clanrat
I don't think the 7th edition rules etc will harm the game at all. All books will soon be in 7th ed. and so balance will be present. The new models rock, from what I've seen - and the Clanrat pictures in WhiteDwarf look awesome too.

I am reserving my judgement on the 7th ed. until I see my new Skaven book/models, but so far I don't think that it's as problematic as you make out.
Theskit Neek,Apr 9 2010
09:39 AM
You can start a new faction.

The faction of Snikitch'es

Would be funny to see you sell that one out  :D


Faction Snikitch: I shall Inherit!
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BilboBaggins
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Lets see where to start.

Was it the Empire when they had the bright idea to make Steam Tanks less Rare?
Was it that they gave High Elves Army Wide ASF and allowing them more Special and Rare units than Core?
Was it the Daemon Book that took the (extremely evil) SOC Daemon list and lowered their points cost and gave them more abilities?
Was it their Power Creep on Dark Elves and Vampire Counts?
Was it their allowing Special Characters into tournaments?
Was it their lying about balancing the 7th edition army books when the Dwarf book (which was the first of the 7th Edition books when release late 6th edition)?

I think it may have been earlier when they put out the very breakable lists in SOC. I run a Slayer Army but the ability to put 18 Doomseekers into a 2K army is just wrong and that isn't the only broken list.

It seems that their game designers are being forced to make armies to sell whatever is the newest army released. Why else for the power creep.

It seems that since they stopped outside play testing the supporters for each army in the company is doing whatever they can to make a broken killer list with the army. Balance seems to be out the window, making it harder to build killer lists isn't even in their thoughts. Why build a Core based army when you can get players to but 2 Steam Tanks to be competitive at 2K against Daemons.
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blader4411
The New Lunar Republic!
Personally, I do not believe that there are many problems with 7th edition. The rules are the most balanced that I've seen, and although the newer armies can spawn some very powerful combinations, as has been mentioned before, soon all the armies will be 7th edition, and then it will be relatively balanced again. Even now, WHFB remains a game in which tactics can overcome almost any army build.

-Killfang
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GreyLord


@Bilbo Baggins

You have hit several nails on the head there tbh.

Although my biggest jib in all of that is the fact chaos armies can no longer mix.

@Snikitch + Bladder

The rules are not what i have the beef with, as i said this edition of rules is by far the best, however the great ness of the rule book gets destroyed everynew army book as there seems to be an exception of some kind in each new army book that directly goes against what is in the rule book. The new clanrats i dont think look very good. I like the re scale the additional hight over goblins and the nice new normal hands however they have replaced big hands with big heads and have made the rat men look more like men rats. WHY? who knows the models in this edition have been close to superb and yet they have lost alot of character in my opinion. Yes they are more detailed and the muti kits allows for more flexability but this is all relative to the fact there is a severe limitaition on 'officail' fluff now.


I think gamesworkshop as a company do need to make each new army sellable but by making them broken is not a good idea. You say that when all 7th edition army books are released there will be balance i call B%^£S245 on that. If the company had any real buisness flare they would realise that if they made each army as appealing to play competativly as the others their would be little problem and by keeping closer to the older themes of warhamme they would also naturally have less broken things creeping into the game (such as uber magic items and characters not to mention lots of new units that quite frankly are pointless (war alter?!?))

I realise that me being me old school in thoughts an all means i am less enamoured by change however i dont see the need to make each new army better than the last to me that makes no sense. This is a very short term way of selling the new armies whilst if they were just generally balanced and yet still good then there would not be the initails rush to buy the new army and then the fall off they usally experience after it, where most people who then want that army can get it second hand at like a 1/3 to half the price (usally off of the internet).


I just find that 7th edition is mired by the fact that everyone knows when a new army comes out it will be broken and it will be 'unbeatable' for a while. Every one has high hopes for this new skaven book i dont. TBH i will be very surprised if they dont merk off the best of all the races by introducing pointless rules and magic items not to mention new units that wont add lot to the game nor the skaven as a race.



Overall i agree that it was with the new release of dwarves (the 6.5ed) that set the standard for the power creep of armies. However why o why did they make such a mint book for O+G then fail with the rest. The O+G book is by far the most balanced of the new books, not because they are less competative (which they are), but because they have less dodgy special rules, they have diversity with redundancy in the actuall list itself and they have not just slapped in a load of uber S%^& for the sake of it, they kept it simple and to me it has had the best results. Being able to form armies of multiple builds and yet each having its own very unique style of play whilst retaining its ability to still be a winning army is what all the other books should have aimed at.
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Ratarsed
Grey Seer
GreyLord
Sep 13 2009, 08:08 AM
Being able to form armies of multiple builds and yet each having its own very unique style of play whilst retaining its ability to still be a winning army is what all the other books should have aimed at.

When you think about it this is a very demanding request indeed. One that I don't think they have ever achieved yet!
Things must be updated to keep the interest alive. New models get done and along with them new rules. Sometimes they will not be to your liking, other times they will.
Personaly I don't like all this straight line stuff the 7th Edition rules introduced. Moving around stuff made much more sense IMO.

As for the army books there is not a huge amount I dislike outside the poor costing of some items and units in each book. They all contain stuff that is either far too good for its cost or far too expensive for its abilities, but then they always have.
I don't mind army wide ASF for the High Elves, I don't mind lots of Thrall type Vampires in a Vampire count army. I agree it's a shame you cannot now have powerful necromancers at the head of an Undead horde (Whatever happened to Henrich Kemmler and all his characterful background) The splitting of the Chaos books is easily overcome by just playing an allied force of beasts and warriors (although not possible for tournament game I admit).

I'll wait and see what they do with the Skaven background, the one most precious to me. I might well change my mind if they mess it up big time, but from the rumours I've heard so far I'm not worried, more excited.

Ratarsed

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Morkskittar
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The Tunnel's Resident Rodent Ecologist

I agree completely. I love the new seventh edition rules, but the rulebooks that have been coming out lack any form of balance whatsoever. Dark Elves really bug me. Before, they really needed to be buffed, but now they are way over the top! The amount of ridiculously good special characters has been driving me crazy, and I feel like the emphasis of the game is becoming less focused on regiments, and more on heroes. My sneaky maoneouvering and baiting doesn't work anymore simply because everything is too powerful, and is determined by who rolls higher. I feel like Warhammer is becoming a big, expensive version of Yahtzee. The models are still great, but I just don't enjoy playing it anymore... plus, the fluff is being butchered left and right. It makes Mork sad... :( I haven't played a game of Warhammer in nine months - at this point I have given up on the hobby and game, and only keep up with the fluff and the forums. Privateer Press is infinitely superior [/blatant ad]

As for why, I really have no idea. GW seems to not rely on any player input, which is my best guess...

Pillz
The Eldritch Wastes: A Post-Lovecraftian Online Serial Novel (Author Website)
Pub Fight Deaths: 334. Pillz and Pyllz are © by Morkskittar.
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Warlock Rageaganish
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I used to be schizophrenic, BUT WE'RE OKAY NOW!

You know, you might be right, and you might be wrong too...

GW has not yet produced ALL the Armybooks of 7th ED, and already some peoples are condemning 7th ED as the "Overpowered Edition" (truly, I've heard a few players saying that at my gaming store).

And what if the power creep stopped with the Skaven book, and all the other Armybook onward were balanced? And what if GW published Erratas for the "Overwhelming" Armybook... It's a possibility.... Unlikely, I'll confess, but it's there....

And, you know, if you don't like it, just like Morks, nobody's being forced to play...
I just stopped playing my 40K Chaos when the Iron Warriors list dissapeared from the codex. Why? I had coverted a LOT of figurines for my list, and most of these convertions just couldn't be played anymore... Fun was gone.

Complaining to us players won't change anything... You have to adress GW with these kinds of remarks... Honestly, when I read your post, my first thought was "another rant against GW"... And it the end, it was... So why don't you take it to "The MAN", GW himself... The power creep won't stop by ranting in forums GW doesn't care about... You have to take the fight to their door for them to notice anything... it's a Company, after all...
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WARNING: Critical thinking can lead to improved mental facility, decreased gullibility, increased social activism, an improved quality of discourse, and a better understanding of the surrounding world. May also lead to change of minds, revision of opinions and ignoring of bad political pundits.
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Criplepaw Queek
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All cut up...
Yeah I agree with Rage here but then again, almost the entire warhammer is ranting about how over powered this edition is. And it's quite hard not to notice the rant when on just about any forum with a warhammer related section has at least a mention about how overpowered dark elves or daemons are. there is just no escaping it. I can't seem to go to my local gaming club without "broken" being mentioned somewhere.

So the easiest way of getting across how overpowered this ed. is to get an online petition going or something. If you got people to spread it you could probably get loads of signatures in just a few weeks. So really you should do something instead of talking about old news
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Warlock Rageaganish
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I used to be schizophrenic, BUT WE'RE OKAY NOW!

@Criplepaw Queek

You just proved my point, every forum got one of those thread, if not more then one... SO why do we keep ranting for nothing...

Someone need to start a real action for it to work and get to GW, and it's not on a non-sanctioned forum that it's gonna be made... That's my point...

Rage out...
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WARNING: Critical thinking can lead to improved mental facility, decreased gullibility, increased social activism, an improved quality of discourse, and a better understanding of the surrounding world. May also lead to change of minds, revision of opinions and ignoring of bad political pundits.
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UnderTheEarth
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Grey Seer Scabrac
I honestly don't care how broken a list I play, its fun even if I lose-

The game where my 7th edition lizzies got trashed by 2 warlocks and a ratling gun contests to that- Sure I asked for advice of how to beat it, but heh, everyone should.

Then again I haven't played any armies that are tanked yet, but soon I'll play DE and also WoC....

Im scared of hydra's according to my friend they have 10 attacks.....
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carcharoth
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Slayer of Lizardmen
Quote:
 
7th edition lizzies got trashed by 2 warlocks and a ratling gun contests
attests. contests is the complete opposite. :P

anyway, i dnt think theres anything wrong with the games general system. most of the 7th ed armies are broke, but if the other books get mped up too its not that big of a deal.

my only real complaint is the proliferation of extremely high armour saves. It seems like every 3rd unit has a 2+ save these days.
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UnderTheEarth
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Grey Seer Scabrac
nah, its just races becoming more advanced and using better armour! ? :P :unsure:

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deathmaster riddick
I Am The Monster
out of curiosity, did this outrage happen when the sixth or fifth editions came out? i'm looking at you old people who remember that far back :D . i'm ticked off too, especially because no one in my circle of friends has learned to play properly because they just bring an over-powered list. and there does seem to be very wide spread discontent. however, i can't help but feel that this is a cycle.
The best way to configure an army is to go play demons.-Nevamore Posted on Nov 6 2009, 04:02 PM

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chieftainskritchskritch
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The Freshmaker

Yeah, im getting tired of all these broken lists too. Im sick and tired of playing dark elf repeater machine gun armies with hydra and ring of hotek. Same deal with daemons with 2 units of 5 flesh hounds, regenerating plague bearer tarpit and siren song. And dont get me STARTED on WoC with Tzeench sorceror with Infernal Puppet and portal spell spam.

But, what are you gonna do?

I think the crux of this problem is that, yeah, sure, armies are overpowered. However, the PLAYERS of those army books arent the ones complaining. Its THEIR lists that are winning the tournaments, generic and easy to win with by even a 2 year old's standards, I admit, but its all the same. And then when the complaining players get THEIR new broken books, they shut up. Its a vicious cycle thats going to be nigh impossible to break.

The only thing that I disagree with in this post is with the comment that good tactics will still win games. To this, I DISAGREE. Take daemons for example. Its all well and good for us skaven to set up baits, flanks and rat-traps, but when your opponent is unbreakable, fights better than you and has a generic 5+ ward save, most of your tactics are going to fall flat.
You kids these days have it so easy, what with your Plague Furnaces and your Hellpit Abominations and your Bonebreaker Warlords. Back in MY day, all we had was Slaves and Clanrats!...and auto-hit Ratling Guns...and skirmishing Jezzails...and 2D6 Warp Lightning...and Lead From The Back...wait, what was my arguement again?
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