Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Add Reply
Good Vs. Evil
Topic Started: 17th August 2009 - 07:34 PM (1,180 Views)
Wafflebob
Member Avatar
Chieftain
I think a lot of us have been at this point. You are going to play a team game, perhaps a big one, and it's decided that you want to play good vs. evil. But before too long problems start to arise.

Some of the most common armies are pretty obvious. Orcs and Goblins are traditionally evil. Same with Vampire counts and it's pretty safe to say that the various hordes of chaos are evil, as well as skaven.

Same thing for good, high elves, dwarfs, wood elves, empire, brettonia, they are all pretty good.

Then you start to wander into uncertain territory. What about Lizardmen? They certainly don't seem evil, however they aren't so friendly with other good races either. They mostly want to be left alone. What about Tomb Kings? Yeah, they are undead but most of them just want to sleep in their tombs and have no particular beef with anybody except the vampire counts.

And then you start to think about it. Brettonians treat their peasants like garbage, Empire has a long standing history of corruption, elves totally disrespected and shaved the beards off of dwarfs who in turn annihilated much of the wood elves homeland. Dark elves essentially ARE high elves that just decided to go be nasty somewhere.

And for the other side, orcs and goblins just want a good fight, it's not really personal. Vampire counts, sure they feed on blood but all they really want is to rule and if you read the chaos fluff its pretty much the same there, some of them, like Nurgle are even kind of benevolent in a twisted sort of way.

So is there really a true good and evil in warhammer? it seems like everybody is kind of at odds with everybody and alliances rise and fall with the years. Nobody is immune from corruption and even some of the most horrifying evils aren't so bad once you get to know them.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Morgoth
Member Avatar
The Ancient Evil

And Ogres just hire themselves out to anybody. Or eat them.

Well, I believe GW intends for every army to have some reason to fight any other.

The Warhammer world IS a mirror of the real world. If ours can/should be called that :unsure: That is why, it is easy to relate to. With some stereotypes for simplicity. Like old cowboy movies. The bad guys wear black hats and the hero a white ditto.


BTW Skaven are not evil. Practical, yes. And misunderstood! ;)
Greetings from MorgothPosted Image Mostly Clan Eshin, occasionally Clan Husk.
Proud keeper of the Poking Stick of Doom, known to many a RPG-player Posted Image
Quote:
 
SingTheScreams:   "....we ain't no chaos-worshipping freaks. We be ratmen, and we do as we please......"

----- Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Halceon
Member Avatar
Theoretical warp-physicist
WARNING!! TVTROPES LINK IN POST!!

Warhammer is a fine example of black and grey morality, there are no good guys. Period. The only guys who truly fight for the greater good of the world are savages, who think EVERYONE is a threat to the world. The "european" good guys are corrupt and infighting forces and the Nehekharans, though mainly rooting for order, judge everything by antiquated laws.


Also - Chronic Backstabbing Disorder: Tzeentch, the Skaven, Tzeentch's worshipers, the Skaven, Dark Elves, Khorne's worshippers... and did we mention the Skaven?
-Warpfire breather and propagandist Halceon
Torquemada
 
Wherever Halceon is, i'm sure he's looking down on us right now. No, he's not dead, mind you, he's just very condescending.


The exploits of Clan Aiza
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
CapAmr05
Member Avatar


Evil: Are trying to rule the world through one scheme or another...
Chaos (DoC, BoC, WoC)
Skaven
VC
DarkElves

Orcs and Goblins

Neutral: Will defend their turf if it's in trouble, or hunt down people for vengance, or join sides to protect or advance their power/ ideals...
Woodelves
Ogre Kingdoms
Tomb Kings
Dogs of War
Lizardmen


Good: Want to remove evil's threat from the world and have little qualms with taking the fight to the enemy....
Empire
Dwarves
Brettonia
High Elves


I broke them down into what is the commonly accepted ranking in my area. The only one I think maybe straddles the evil/neutral line (more than the others and completely unintentionally) is Orcs and Goblins.

--Cap
Lonewolf Grand Tournament April 28-30

The Beer Phase Podcast

Clan Skrittar
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
pilgrim2715
Member Avatar
Doomwheel Driver
I agree with Halceon that there is no "good" side in warhammer. However it definitely seems that GW fashioned particular races to be pure evil. While Brettonia, Dwarfs, etc have good and bad qualities the Dark elves, chaos, and skaven only have decadent qualities.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
warpturkey
Member Avatar
Clanrat
The thing I like about the Warhammer universe is that its easy enough to make the assumption at first glance ,Empire is the good guys, Greenskins are evil and right down the line with all the armies but its not so clear cut in actuallity. I love the fact that black and white doesnt really exist and all you truly have is an overwhelming expanse of gray area.
Anybody who claims to be on the side of right is probably lieing and anyone who truly believes they are on the side of right is a close minded fool. Motivations are always going to be selfish to one degree or another.It doesnt matter why you picked a fight,you still picked a fight.
OH DAMNITT! Theres blood in my stool....oooh look warpstone
* mnyum mnyum mnyum*
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
blader4411
The New Lunar Republic!
warpturkey
Aug 17 2009, 09:36 PM
The thing I like about the Warhammer universe is that its easy enough to make the assumption at first glance ,Empire is the good guys, Greenskins are evil and right down the line with all the armies but its not so clear cut in actuallity. I love the fact that black and white doesnt really exist and all you truly have is an overwhelming expanse of gray area.
Anybody who claims to be on the side of right is probably lieing and anyone who truly believes they are on the side of right is a close minded fool. Motivations are always going to be selfish to one degree or another.It doesnt matter why you picked a fight,you still picked a fight.

+1

A perfect explanation ^_^

-Killfang
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Random
Member Avatar
Clanrat
It was so easy at first.

Good guys: Nagash.

Bad guys: Others.

Too bad the bad guys won.
We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
we ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts
and tore the world asunder...
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Chieftain Cazgar
Member Avatar
Prophet of Plastic
best way to define it is:

good guys defend. bad guys attack.
Posted Image

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
UnderTheEarth
Member Avatar
Grey Seer Scabrac
lizardmen love to defend....although we once attacked naggaroth just to take back ONE stolen item (star stela (daemon killer)) (needless to say we crushed them....and took it and returned back!)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
scrivener
Member Avatar
*toot*

From a marketing angle, it makes sense to do it this way so a variety of players, regardless of their own personal alignment, can relate to the race they choose and find a reason to want to beat up another race. And many races are made to appeal to "good guy" players as well as "bad guy" players: both the players who like stalwart defenders of Good and the players who are into the gothic fairytale danger that dwells in the woods will find something in the wood elves for them.
hannanibal
 
*Angry mob assembles*

"WHAT DO WE WANT!!??"
"A THINNISH, WATERY PAINT WITH A GREENER TINGE THAN AGRAX EARTHSHADE!!"
"WHEN DO WE WANT IT!?"
"QUITE SOON PLEASE AS MY LAST POT IS RUNNING OUT!"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
chieftainskritchskritch
Member Avatar
The Freshmaker

I can agree to an extent with what most people are saying, in that there are no clear cut good or bad races.

HOWEVER:

I truly and honestly believe that Skaven, at least, are the only purely evil force in the warhammer world. Everything they do is to their own ends, and it is always a BAD end to which they aspire.

Sure, we have done some things that could be considered "good" by some. For instance, helping to kill Nagash. However, just by looking at the reasoning behind their decisions, it becomes evident that the small, weeny pieces of good they do are to achieve a bad end. In the case of Nagash, to kill him and take over the world.

The other "bad" races in the warhammer world have an excuse. You could point out that Dark Elves, for instance, are horribly misunderstood. Sure, they treat people cruelly and whatnot, but to them everyone else is little more than "cattle". They have the same amount of compassion for humans (and others in general) as a beef farmer has for his herd. Nothing personal, just business. Hell, you could even justify their hatred for everything by saying that they are just projecting their ill feelings onto others, caused by having their true king and his followers kicked out of a veritable Nirvana just because so d*ck decided to say "nuts to the royal line, im putting this guy in charge. P*ss off Malekith". That would make me kinda angry and emo too!

As for chaos, is it really BAD? Take the Norse, for instance. They worship the chaos gods openly, and there are a lot of Empire people who are ok with them. Hell, isnt the Norse colony of Skeggi in Lustria used as a primary port for all ships of the old world? And as for the gods themselves, they too arent inherently bad. Khorne is the lord of blood, sure, but when you get down to it he primarily embodies skill at army and military genius. Slaanesh is only bad because society has a penchant for putting taboos on human actions. So doesnt he represent the ultimate expression of freedom, where you can throw off the shackles of societal oppression and revel in what truly makes you happy? Tzeench is the "changer of ways", but is change bad? Without change, there can be no growth! A fair few of Tzeench's plans are even beneficial to society! And as for Nurgle, he's just a happy old man doddering around in his laboratory mixing stuff together in vails to create new diseases. He isnt malicious in his spreading of plague, as he spreads it to everyone, deserving or not. In fact, existance itself needs pestilence. By culling the weaker members of a group, the remainder become stronger by developing resistance to the disease, thereby increasing the genetic strength of the future population.

So yes, in conclusion to this long winded post: skaven = bad, everyone else = various shades of grey.
You kids these days have it so easy, what with your Plague Furnaces and your Hellpit Abominations and your Bonebreaker Warlords. Back in MY day, all we had was Slaves and Clanrats!...and auto-hit Ratling Guns...and skirmishing Jezzails...and 2D6 Warp Lightning...and Lead From The Back...wait, what was my arguement again?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jester
Member Avatar
Chieftain
IMO, Evil=Chaos. That includes daemons, woc, and beasts of chaos. Their only purpose is destruction. Good=Lizardmen. They were created only to serve the old ones and defeat chaos. Hence, why saurus warriors have similar statline to chaos warriors, according to the fluff of lizardmen, they were created only to defeat chaos. I guess there's a good argument skaven are evil but everything else is pretty grey as has been stated. I forgot who said the warhammer world is similar to ours but if you really think about it you represent each deadly sin with a warhammer race. Think about that one :o .
My current project High Elves army diary
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
scrivener
Member Avatar
*toot*

Quote:
 
Everything they do is to their own ends, and it is always a BAD end to which they aspire.


I would say skaven aren't true evil either. They serve their own ends, but in the natural world, you've got to act in your benefit because who else is going to do that for you? Survival of the fittest and acting in your best interests (even if on the face of it you're acting in the interest of others) is inbuilt in our genes, it's all part of evolution. They aren't destructive for the sake of it, they have a very pragmatic goal to be the dominant species even if it's at the cost of other species. It's a natural desire for a species that wishes to flourish, and its not much different from what we humans are doing.
hannanibal
 
*Angry mob assembles*

"WHAT DO WE WANT!!??"
"A THINNISH, WATERY PAINT WITH A GREENER TINGE THAN AGRAX EARTHSHADE!!"
"WHEN DO WE WANT IT!?"
"QUITE SOON PLEASE AS MY LAST POT IS RUNNING OUT!"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
chieftainskritchskritch
Member Avatar
The Freshmaker

scrivener
Aug 17 2009, 10:30 PM
Quote:
 
Everything they do is to their own ends, and it is always a BAD end to which they aspire.


I would say skaven aren't true evil either. They serve their own ends, but in the natural world, you've got to act in your benefit because who else is going to do that for you? Survival of the fittest and acting in your best interests (even if on the face of it you're acting in the interest of others) is inbuilt in our genes, it's all part of evolution. They aren't destructive for the sake of it, they have a very pragmatic goal to be the dominant species even if it's at the cost of other species. It's a natural desire for a species that wishes to flourish, and its not much different from what we humans are doing.

Ah, very true.

However, in order to act in your own interests you need to put those interests ahead of the interests of others. Especially if you arent a dominant race.

If the skaven want to be dominant, then they have to suppress the other races of the old world in order to obtain dominance. In order to do this, they would have to undermine and assault them for this supremacy. This would generally be considered inherently bad by others.

This concept is also true for their lesser endevours (ie: those that dont benefit the species as a whole, but the individual). Skaven by nature are selfish individuals, and whatever schemes they concoct always revolve around obtaining something they dont have (power, status, warpstone, etc) and generally taking it from others.

It basically all boils down to: you want something you dont have - someone else has what you want - you must take this from them.

In the act of taking what you want, you hurt the person who has what you want. General consensus = bad.
You kids these days have it so easy, what with your Plague Furnaces and your Hellpit Abominations and your Bonebreaker Warlords. Back in MY day, all we had was Slaves and Clanrats!...and auto-hit Ratling Guns...and skirmishing Jezzails...and 2D6 Warp Lightning...and Lead From The Back...wait, what was my arguement again?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · General Wargaming Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply