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Empire Gunline warggh!
Topic Started: 28th February 2008 - 06:06 AM (417 Views)
fluffstalker


Ok last week I blooded my Skaven in combat against an orc list. My first warhammer game ever- but I did surprisingly well that I forced a draw.

However I then played the store manager's empire list and was crushed. I need help as his shooting usually targets my shooting first, and mine is a shooting heavy list. His magicians are heaven ( is it heaven?) and always target my weapons teams and skirmishers asap, ignoring my slaves.

Finally, when my blocks near his lines, he has two hellblasters waiting, that can usually crush my slaves so bad that they flee through my units, causing a whole string of panic tests.

His main blocks of infantry basically can hold my cr, normally I would use slaves to set up flank charges but in this case its basically my cr on his halbidiers and spearmen. I put up a good fight but in the end since my jezzails were killed by crossbowmen, my ratlings and warpfire by magic, I would require real good lucky to win cr. He then breaks the stalemate with small units of knights that normally would be food for my shooting but he keeps them way back, until our lines engage, my system of flank protectors are gone, and theres no real way I can pin them or stop them engaging.

My list follows as thus

Chieftan w Shield and Hvy Armour
2 Full Kitted Warlocks

3 CR at 25 with banner and musician, and then two ratlings and one warpfire

2 units of 20 naked slaves

3 x 3 PWG

8 Jezzails

25 Plague Monks, 2 H Weapons, BoBH

4 Rat Swarms

WLC

Im not sure what he has as Im not familiar with all the codices yet.

Basically he holds the center with three large infantry blocks, keeps two small but hard knight units way back, or hidden. He skirmishes with some huntsmen (rangers)? And these usually die but end up delaying my guys and breaking the checkerboard a lot.

Large amnt of crossbowmen who eat anything not screened, and woe betide me if he has a hill.

And then the hellblasters, which are just homo.

Doesnt seem like much but hes pretty cunning at drawing me across the table by killing my long range stuff pretty quick.

Any Advice? Its not desperate yet we've only had two games and but Id like to avoid repeating the same mistakes.

I've just mutated your post slightly to make it more child friendly, there are kids on this board! ;) ~Lughtigern~
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Warlord Bloodfang
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From a quick look over I saw on major mistake in your game.

Slaves do not cause panic tests when they run through one of your own units. No matter how big they are. That's the rule called "Expendable" for you.

Clan Bloodfang
Capre Jugulum: Vampire Counts Army
My Custom Doomwheel
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scrivener
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*toot*

A few points:

1. If he can target your weapon teams and other units while ignoring your slaves, then your slaves aren't doing their job. They are supposed to be there to stop people from shooting at the stuff that matter.

2. He is prioritising his shooting by first taking out the stuff that can hurt his own shooting back, then dealing with the rest later. Prioritize your shooting as well. Don't spread your shooting out, but target the largest low-armoured units in the centre of his army, focus on few units but doing maximum damage to them: you're more likely to cause panic tests, and also there's the fact that players tend to have a few extra soldiers per unit to cover losses, but not so much extra units, i.e. he has a function for each unit and would have a harder time coping once key units disappear completely. If your jezzails can't get LoS to the knights, then they shouldn't be standing in LoS of the crossbows.Only allow as much LoS to your expensive shooters as is necessary to get their prime targets. Take out the mages as fast as possible: Heavens Lore is the one with Comet of Cassandora, IIRC, a bloody annoying thing that can pretty much hit anything.

3. To counter his shooting, you can also use the Stormbanner to reduce the shooting (mind it will do the same to you) and tunnellers to keep the mages, crossbowmen and hellblasters occupied. You do not need to have to kill them (though that's preferable), just keep them tied down in combat long enough for your main force to arrive.

4. See how he keeps his knights back so your jezzails can't take them out, and only brings them out once they have a job to do with no serious threat against them. Keep your important CC units (especially monks) out of LoS as much as possible.

If you want to customise your army against gunlines, get lots of units (to divide his target options) and make sure that they are of unit sizes that won't cause neighbouring panic tests. Get fast movers like nightrunners and giant-rats to close in and engage asap. Prioritise your attack strategy as well. As an example:

1. shield the most expensive/important units while trying to take out his most dangerous long range shooters with your own before he kills yours first.

2. Apply your shooting neutralisers like stormbanner or tunnelling teams to keep his shooters engaged (no matter how temporarily) while you close into short range.

3. Get your fasters troops forward to engage remaining shooters to engage them in CC while getting your CC troops into final position for the charge. Get your knight-traps and flank protectors organised.

4. Enter CC.
hannanibal
 
*Angry mob assembles*

"WHAT DO WE WANT!!??"
"A THINNISH, WATERY PAINT WITH A GREENER TINGE THAN AGRAX EARTHSHADE!!"
"WHEN DO WE WANT IT!?"
"QUITE SOON PLEASE AS MY LAST POT IS RUNNING OUT!"
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Scruitiss
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Finally, when my blocks near his lines, he has two hellblasters waiting, that can usually rape my slaves so bad that they flee through my units, causing a whole string of panic tests.

Like say previously, no panic test...

Put away rat swarm for more slaves, give them a muscicien.
Put your jezzail in two units for divide his attention.
Your weapon team and pwt must be cover by others units until you use them, before they always stays back of other units. Use them until the third turn.
And try some tunnelers of clan Eshin 2*3 and attack with the two one target.
MY SKRYRE ARMY DIARY
http://underempire.net/index.php?act=ST&f=56&t=30712&st=
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Zavratatar
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Others have been saying this; there's a magic word to be said in games like these: Tunnelers. :)

I will also say that he's a really really bad store manager for playing a first timer with that sort of force. Was he also deploying on a hill, perhaps? Ick, ick.

You'll want to send some small divertion force to take care of those knights, possibly keep jezzails far back so they won't be shot by anything with a range of 24" or less and then let them pepper the knights. You'll need to get some flank charges in when you get there, so something needs to hold the flanks free. The ratswarms, as mentioned, can probably go out of the list.. They'll be better when the next book comes along, but for now they're a bit overpriced. Some tunnelers instead, maybe? ;)

All in all though, this store-guy doesn't sound like a nice fellow at all. He's probably setting up the terrain in his favour, not telling you rules that are important (he probably knew about slaves and panic...) and that sort of thing. The most important thing to do, in my opinion, is go play against a bunch of other, more pleasant people that will help you learn the tricks and important bits in the game as you go along.. Things like hills not being natural things in deployment zones, for example.

Congratulations on your first game being a draw, that's very good work! :)
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Lord Lughtigern
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Zavratatar
Feb 28 2008, 09:42 AM
I will also say that he's a really really bad store manager for playing a first timer with that sort of force. Was he also deploying on a hill, perhaps? Ick, ick.

I'm not too sure I agree with that...
In fairness, from the description of the Empire army, it doesn't really sound too extreme, or even much like a gunline. Admittedly, two Helblasters may seem like alot, but they still are as random (maybe moreso) as a Warp Lightning Cannon, considering their entirely unreliable rate of fire and a 50% chance of Misfire each time they're used. When you consider that he could be filling up his rare choices with Steam Tanks instead, you've gotta be grateful! Also, the fact that he's using at least 2 block infantry units instead of just taking Handgunners and Crossbowmen... well, his army is starting to sound like a standard empire list.

What the others have said on how to counter his army sounds pretty good, so I don't have altogether too much more to add. Tunnelers are definetly handy to have around against any form of shooting, and you could easily fit a unit or two of them in if you took out some Rat Swarms.

Quote:
 
All in all though, this store-guy doesn't sound like a nice fellow at all. He's probably setting up the terrain in his favour, not telling you rules that are important (he probably knew about slaves and panic...) and that sort of thing.


Come on now, Zavratatar, not everywhere is as bad as your GW, surely! :P But I do agree, gaming in a store is usually a bit more competitive than at a mate's house, and it'd be a good idea to become more familiar with the game in a more relaxed atmosphere. Plus, there's tea at a friend's house! :D
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Links you should try out:
Denizens of the Deep - Rules for Underground Campaigns
Warhammer Skirmish - The Lazy Man's Mordheim
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Zavratatar
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Grey Seer
Nah true, he may not be a bad guy at all. It just seemed very "typical" when I read it...

My point about him being a bad manager was not so much that he plays with a gunline or not, it's about him playing to win against a new guy... I'm playing tonight with a bunch of first-timers (or "kidz" as they're called) and my army will be made up of too small clanrat units, barely any slaves, too little shooting and an assassin going gung ho on the wrong side of the board. There's really no point in bashing new players against the board from the start, they might not enjoy the game even!

I touched on the topic of what one expects from a game somewhere in another topic, and as store manager (and probably seasoned player) he should have been trying to give the new guys a bit of a "fair chance" to actually see their units do something..

Still, that's just how I would do it, and I'm no store manager. :) Perhaps him beating the snot out of new gamers makes them hungry for revenge. ^_^
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fluffstalker


No hes not a bad guy at all. We completely forgot about the slaves thing, both of us, we rememberd like on turn 4 when the slaves were so much dead fur. Innocent mistake, he apologized. No hes a long time buddy of mine, and I specifically told him not to coddle me as Im a good 40k player and I dont want to be treated like a 10 year old, and a tournie is coming up in two months.

So I guess I got what I asked for lol. But it was a good learning experience, I did manage to cave in his front a bit, just couldnt do much about his knights.

I guess my problem is army selection.. didnt have the tunnelers the night runners and the GRs. Problem is- I dont really like these units, and my army is defnitely skyre themed with the lone exception of the plague monks because I couldnt resist them. I feel that If i start adding everything itll become your generic warlord list.

However thanks to your suggestions I did take a unit of gutter runners tunneling, poisoned weapons, the next time we did play.

My jezzails still faced a lot of problems though- its hard to move up and be able to get a bead on his knights, whereas if I stay out of his crossbowmen range they just cant shoot much. Im considering ditching them if im playing such armies, and instead get what people suggested- a skirmishing force of 2 night runner units and some GRs, even if I dont really like the models.

This time around I did manage to get across the table and make him sweat, as our random deployment put the large hill right in the centre, hahaha, which actually wasnt that great as it ended up breaking up my phalanx. The Storm Banner was present, but unfortuantely for me this time around he played more aggresively, hoping to catch my army in disorder as i messed up my movement early, so it didnt help a lot.

He also got rid of some cannons and put in a steam tank, which was pretty nasty, and also thinned out his blocks a bit and made his knight units bigger and nastier. The Tank didnt actually do much but I got too much tunnel vision (normally i do that to people with my seer council, its not nice to have it done to me), and wasted shots on it that I shouldve been using to clean up his blocks. We clashed and I ended up distracting his knights for a while with night runners while I attacked his center. Problem was I rushed a few of my slaves too far up while my clannies inched up the hill and then, they were charged and he overan into my lines. I held him for a while but again my weapon teams were just too vulnerable to the comets and whatever the hell that he was casting upon them, and then his knights crashed into the center and it was de ja vu.

This time however, i captured some standards and broke all but one of his infantry, just not in time for the calvary to arrive, so I almost made a draw.

I think the major problem will be in the 1.5k tournie. I always feel stretched for points making a list, and the most I can put in is the tunneling team If I want preserve the feel of the force. If I want to add in night runners and giant rats, I end up having to ditch other stuff. I know also, thanks to Lord Lughtigern's point, that his army isnt really that shooty. Now im worried when I do come against a true gunline. Any suggestions on balancing this out?




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scrivener
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The problem with a heavy skryre theme is that skryre covers only shooting and magic, and that's only half the game. Most generic warlord lists are classified as generic warlord lists because they use a variety of units, and it's this variety of units that gives the army greater freedom in applying the appropriate tools for any given situation. This doesn't mean that you have to take as much as possible, though, all you need is to identify a certain number of common tactics you'd encounter and have a couple of tools ready to deal with them should you meet them. The second thing is to know which tools are most appropriate for which situation/target, so you don't waste a unit's action on a function that's less than efficient for it's attributes. You have a variety of shooters, each of which is most suited for a specific type of target. Thirdly, know when to attempt killing and when to decoy, delay or ignore. For instance, with a hill in the middle and a refused flank set-up, one might be able to keep the tank out of battle without having to target it.

With the jezzails, patience is the key. Their primary target is the knights, and little else. If he's good at covering them, then there's no point trying to get a bead on them in the initial turns, as this would mean putting your jezzails in a vulnerable position. Try to reserve them for a bit, then watch for when he will apply his knights and against which target. To use his knights they will at some point have to expose themselves. Preempt the situation and go for them when the situation does appear. If the crossbows are being a serious threat in your closing in stages, then they should be targetted as first priority, possibly by the ratlings. Same with the wizard.

You're still achieving a draw and that's good. You're learning from the games and that's most important.
hannanibal
 
*Angry mob assembles*

"WHAT DO WE WANT!!??"
"A THINNISH, WATERY PAINT WITH A GREENER TINGE THAN AGRAX EARTHSHADE!!"
"WHEN DO WE WANT IT!?"
"QUITE SOON PLEASE AS MY LAST POT IS RUNNING OUT!"
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Zavratatar
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Haha, if you asked for it, you had it coming. I apologize to the store manager, he was only doing what you asked of him ^_^

It seems you're learning lots from your games anyway, soon enough you'll be winning, not to worry. :)

I understand your concern about "mixing" to much into your list and thus "watering it down" from it's original scryre-ness... You can use globardiers for many of the roles that nightrunners and giant rats have, but the tunnelers are really hard to replace... If you've got a grey seer you can skitterleap characters behind the warmachines to mess things up for them, but in lower points, I'm hard pressed to come up with a good alternative for you. Against the true gunline (4-5 warmachines in 1500pts for example, with nasty shooters units on the sides. And difficult terrain in front of the warmachines...) you'll have to remove the machines, there's to much points and damage output in there to just "ignore" them. 5 Tunnelers can rip through one machine per combat phase and perhaps more importantly get them busy as early as turn two if you're a bit lucky. Without them I guess you'll be shooting at them or something, but that really isn't the most effective way.. still, if you've got enough magic and guns, even that will work. ;)

When we play in my group, we usually place our entire armies in the middle ground of the table, the 24" you're not allowed to deploy in. Then we present all the units so we both know what we're playing against, and then we start deploying. If you do something similar to this (the important part is seeing his army before you begin) you can start the planning really early:

Match his units against yours and give each unit or group of units (clanrats+slave pairs for example) a set target. He'll be deploying his stuff first anyway, so as soon as a big infantry block goes on the table, you can plop down the slaves to bait them opposite them and then the clanrats to kill them beside the slaves.

Take special notice of heavy targets; does he have one or more heavy knight units? Do you have enough bait to allow your jezzails to shoot at them in peace all game?

You'll probably end up short, with units left over that you can't take in close combat because you've run out of bait and hitters, or because they're unbreakable, etc. These would be your targets for magic and shooting, and darn you if you get distracted and start shooting at something else. :)

Ah, this, as so many of my posts, is a huge rant. XD What I'm trying to say, anyway, is this:

1 Make a plan for each of your units that you think will win you the game, based on his units vs yours.

2 Stick to the plan. Don't let him distract you from it. You made a plan that wins, if you stick to it... you win! :)

Finally, I'd say enter the tournament with the list as you want it to look. Try to work around it's weaknesses. You'll be facing some obscure stuff on both ends of the scale, that's just the way tournaments are. :) If after the tournament you absolutely feel there's something missing in your force (can't deal with unbreakable units with magic resistance, or something like that) come back and tell us about it. We can work something out for you. ;)
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FatherSquee
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Wow, I'm way to lazy to read Zav's and Scriv's posts so I'll just throw in my two bits and hope I hit a mark that's still can be said :P

Anyway if you want to keep it Skyre than one thing you might for replacement of the Tunnlers and Night Runners is more PWG units. They definently arn't as fast as the Eshin troops so they'll be the same speed as the rest but many small groups of them could prove to be a distraction for his gun lines until you get close enough.
That and Giant Rat can definently fit the Skryre theme, hell some of the older models have techno bits build onto them :D So you could probebly make liberal use of them if you wanted. In the end though nothing says death to a mage like a Tunnel Team or a suprize Assassin.
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