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Horde Army viable in 7th ed?
Topic Started: 18th February 2008 - 10:22 AM (497 Views)
fluffstalker


New player here, not only to the ratmen but to warhammer fantasy as a whole, though I am a 40k veteran.

Now Ive browsed many forums, including this one (undoubtedly the best so far) and got a lot of good articles, but in the end my question remains unresolved.

Being a 40k player I got hooked into the idea of a SAD army immediately (along the lines of skrivenners army, so no 20 rat meatshields but still shooty), and the liberal gaming community where I'm at play to win usually while keeping a good gaming spirit in the air, so it's not so much the cheese im worried about as being different.

I like to be different in my gaming, and theres already another powergaming ratling gun fanatic here, and I wouldnt want our armies to be playing for the title here, that would just be, well, sad. I just want my army to play differently so the opponent wont sigh and ask when he sees the clanrats, ok so how many ratlings do you have? What I want to do is to keep putting clanrats on the table until my opponent gurgles , please stop!

Therefore, in the spirit of being different, Im asking whether a horde, cc oriented skaven army is possible at all? Is it possible to use bait and switch, flee and flank charge and other such tactics while moving your army forward in a massive tide, or does it all just fall apart?

Right now the models i have are two cr regiments, two ratlings (dont worry, this'll be max I think), and a warlock engineer, so I have a base for a SAD but capable of expanding into a differnt kind of Skaven army easily.

I just need to know whether or not this kind of army would be utterly raped on anything but a very, very friendly gaming table, because im a gamer first and a painter and modeller second, and regardless of how spectacular it may look to have a massive horde I want it to actually do something in competetive games.

Cheers- fluff

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Aeschere
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Well, to be short. Yes, horde armies are definitely viable. This is mainly due to the use of slaves. With only 2 points a piece they are cheap as it can be and give many useful options. The fact they they do not cause panic among the other troops is a great help with this. If you really want to max your horde feeling you will have to cut down on the characters though. Also the ratlings are great, but for the price of 2 ratlings you can have three units of 20 slaves.

My suggestion will be to minimize the amount of magic items and other goodies and spend your points on clanrats and slaves, Just take 1 warlord for the leadership bonus and the general and the rest on troops. You can add a unit of Plague Monks as "shock troop" and some night runners for different tactical uses. But you can easily play 7 units of 30 clanrats and 5 units of 22 slaves + some more options in a 2000 point game. Reaching 300+ and nearing or even exceeding 400 models...I hope you have a big gaming table ;-)
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bakfire the experimenter
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most people i play get a strange look on their face when i drop 6 movement trays on the table before i get a model out of my case, i am doing better and better but the the one problem i have found is that on a small or busy (losts of scenery) table i struggle with movement due to the number of units i have on the table.

best advice i can give for a true horde army is be really carefull with deployment and get multiple units into every combat, without much shooting / magic enemy units will be intact when you get into combat.

but basically if the horde army is played correctly it is devestating..

a unit of plague monks might be helpful for you as they wont take break tests from shooting so you can use them as a missile shield to get your other units across the field (expensive way of doing it but still)

or a BSB with storm banner which would help against shooting
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Morkskittar
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The horde army is definitely viable. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that in the hands of a good player, horde is THE most effective Skaven army. I play horde all the time, and it wins more often than me when I don't use a horde. Skaven are a horde army. Yes, it is easy for a horde to fall apart if you're not careful, so it will take practice and growth. Once you know how it works, it will be a very effective army...

And the look on your opponent's face when you outnumber them 4:1 is priceless. :D

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Stinkhair
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Dabbling GM. Clanrat loon. 6th Edition Aficionado. Bitter.

Aye. Certainly viable. But sometimes a pain in the rump to use. Units get in each other's way. Slaves with delusions of grandeur rally in the path of a perfect flank charge ( <_< ). And the army sometimes collapses from one bad roll.


Watch your BSB's/General's leadership bubbles. 12" radius is too damn small once you pass 12 blocks of troops on the field. A warlord's leadership is vital to holding a horde together.

Units near the warlord, with a musician, rally on 8 or less. That's not bad. Considering that includes slaves. Outside the 'bubble' you're on 6 or less, or worse. Inside the bubble your ranked units are armed with leadership 10. Outside you're down to 8. Or 5.

So be careful with those two characters. I run mine cheap, and keep them out of combat. My army tends to collapse if they perish.

This makes your flanks vulnerable. During my last game I lost 60 clanrats on the right flank, who failed 7 rally tests on their way off of the board, while the units inside the bubble in the centre beat off a black coach, a mass of ghouls, and a 40-stong zombie unit. Position your general carefully in response to the location of the enemy's hard-hitting or terror-causing units. You can't cover everyone, so make sure you cover the units that will need it.


Multiple units aren't always good in combats. A clanrat unit charging into the front of an enemy unit already engaged in combat with a large clanrat unit to it's flank will do no good at all. If you've got a healthy (Read : 20+) unit into the flank of most enemy units, that should be enough. If you need more numbers in the combat, and you can't hit the rear, then a unit into the same flank that you're already engaging is preferrable. Anything else will give the enemy more attacks. With 99% of opponents, you want to minimise the number of attacks they get, because theirs are much better than those of your troops.

Charging a second unit into the front or other flank of an already-flanked unit will generally actually decrease your chances of winning the combat.


Don't be afraid to take some fire. I have had units stand for a turn or two under bolthrower and cannon fire while flanking units got into position. You should have a lot of rats, and all but massed shooting should be fairly ineffectual. Getting into combat quickly is a priority, but don't charge unless it's a good tactical move. Again, the Ld bubble of the general will keep even heavily mauled units in line most of the time.


Slaves are great, useful and expendable. But also still dangerous. A fully ranked slave unit in the flank of an enemy unit is still potentially lethal. Angle them to isolate enemies at weird angles. Use them to shield a big expensive unit from missiles. Stand them just in front of warmachines they're not within charge range of, to limit field of fire. Use them to threaten a flank. They're great.


Make sure that units are not going to be in the path of potential fleeing units. Few things are more annoying than 30 fleeing clanrats, but one thing that certainly is is when 30 fleeing clanrats move through two other units, cause panic, and fully 90 clanrats, who haven't even engaged the enemy yet, go routing off of the board. <_<


With regards to army build....Obviously Clanrats and Slaves are the bulk of the list. Lots of them. I run units of 30 Clanrats and 21 slaves. A harder unit, e.g. monks or stormvermin, is useful, but more than one of these units will begin to limit the size of your horde. Magic is up to you. I have a policy of 'lots or none'. I don't find a single warlock to be very effective, as one can easily be shut down by the enemy. I am now experimenting with playing without magic. It leads to some painful moments. Also. With a lack of magic offence and defence, I find my weaponteams being murdered 99% of the time. Magic missile + T3 single wound model = death. I'm considering dropping mine. Play around for yourself and see.

That's pretty much all the advice I can give... Good luck! ^_^

And the real challenge isn't playing a horde.

It's painting one. ;)
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Sebrent
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My two warpstone tokens for playing a horde are:

  • Have at least one (I prefer two or more) units that can actually kill. This is to deal with stubborn/unbreakable troops as Skaven Static CR usually doesn't "cut it" against these foes. For this I like to use Rat Ogres and/or some time of magic and/or shooting.
  • If you are using Giant Rats and/or Rat Ogres numbering 2-3+ units and can spare a hero slot, take a Master Moulder. As Stinkhair pointed out, your general/BSB bubbles are relatively small in comparison to what you'd like to have for a horde army. The Master Moulder creates a bubble of its own that affects your Moulder units (Giant Rats & Rat Ogres), giving you some added protection against Ld-based tests.
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fluffstalker


Thanks alot for the great info guys, it helped alot.

I was wondering If i was going horde whether there was any point in bringing some fire support along at all or should I rely on ranks and flanking? I sitll want the horde theme but will brining along just two ratlings hurt or help- im considering that elite units such as hammerers and chaos warriors might still be able to tank flank charges,and then I would be in trouble.

Alternatively I was considering a bunch of small PWG squads to bust open armour as it hits my blocks. But as you said, stinkhair, they will just attract inordinate amounts of enemy fire, esp magic.

My final option would be to have elite shock troops like plauge monks and pcbs on the flanks read to demolish the enemies elite soldiers or alternatively flank his central units. These would be supported by unbreakable rat swarms to make sure that my flanks to cave in. I think this is more in line with the army theme.

One final thing- the screaming bell. I know the grey seer is a big target, yet the bell just screams fluff to me. After all, what could ban so many differnt rats from differnt clans to form this massive horde but the tolling of the bell? Perhaps its only worth it in 2k games, but if there was some way of fitting it in there, Id like it.

Cheers and ty for the advice.
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Sebrent
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There's nothing wrong with taking small units of PWGs. Take them in units no bigger than 6 (that way, if they panic from shooting, they are less than US5 and don't spread the panic through your army).

I find PCBs to be one-hit wonders ... if they don't break it in the first round of combat, they start to "suck" as they lose their +2S from the flails and their re-roll from hatred after the first round of combat ... making them plague monks who exchanged their additional hand weapon for gas.

If you're playing as a horde army and chaos manages to get a flank charge, you did something wrong. The nice thing about massively outnumbering your opponent is that you have more units to maneuver as well as throw away in order to get flank/rear charges.

Of all the things you'll fight, I believe flying terror causers will be your biggest annoyance. They are hard to get into combat except the one(s) they want to get into (usually in your side/rear) and terror is always annoying, especially for our non-ranked units. I use WLCs, Magic, and Jezzails to handle them (the only reason I ever take Jezzails, ha ha)

My advice would be to flesh out a good bit of your army as a horde, but make sure you go through that checklist of "how would I deal with...". Hordes, Stubborn/Unbreakable, Magic Heavy, Flying Terror Causers, etc. Make sure you have a plan for dealing with each... even better is to have 2+ plans for dealing with each.
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Squeek Squeek the battlehungry
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Chieftain
Alternatively I was considering a bunch of small PWG squads to bust open armour as it hits my blocks. But as you said, stinkhair, they will just attract inordinate amounts of enemy fire, esp magic.
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PWG are excellent I've found in units of 2 to go along with every clanrat units. They will absorb alot of enemy fire, but who cares if losing a 20pt unit keeps your more powerful units safe. I usually make it a point to boast about how great my PWG are before a match and laugh as the first 2 turns sees a gunlines shooting kill under 100pts worth of models. The even greater benifit is if they dont shoot them then those PWG can potentially hurt high armor opponents.

Personally though I ignore most of the hard hitting enemy units until the end of the game. Slaves and fleeing usually sees that the 400pt chosen unit gets none of its points back, and meanwhile the majority of the horde kills off all of its support.

by turn 5 or 6 I'm usualy geared to hit it in the flank and its just a toss of the dice to see if I kill it or watch it just stand there.

Giant rats, Night runners, Clanrats, and Slaves are the only units I run in my 2k games, but with 350 models on the board Ive only lost 2 in a couple dozen games. Ive found a warlord with a couple low point chieftans are great anchors to make sure you pass the ld tests.
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The Adept
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Hordes are a great option. Just be prepared to paint lots and lots (and lots...) of fur. A couple of pointers:

- Make sure you have something to deal with high speed foes (fast cav, danagerous skirmishers, flyers etc). It can be shooting (jezzies for the range), magic (I tend to run the twins - 2 engineers), upgraded skirmishers (2HW night runners, gutter runners or even PCBs) or lone fighty characters (but only against non-shooting armies with weak fast stuff). If you don't they can really ruin your day by taking away those vital ranks.

- Ranks and flanks are what it's all about. Don't exspect your rats to actually kill anything (other than with dangerous technology). Most combats will be won with static CR, normally without you killing anyone. And that means ranks and flanks - and a BSB!

- I second (or third) the need for something that can actually kill stuff, otherwise one unbreakable unit will stop you dead. Rogres maybe, monks or even gutter runners (they can kill stuff!).

- Slaves are the greatest. I run 21 per unit with music, but that's a matter of taste. Learn to use them correctly (angling so the enemy goes the wrong way, baiting into traps, killing weak support units 'cos the slaves got ignored) and you'll win. Use 'em wrong, and you'll loose.

- PWGs are also great. Two of them per unit gives you a non-panic causing unit that could possibly kill something (like Chosen Chaos Knights, Blood Knights, Sarus Cav etc), and more importantly are another deployment drop. If you have four units of PWGs, that's 80 points. Plus a couple of units of slaves, that's under 200pts for six deployment drops. By the time you've put them down, your opponents deployed most of his army, letting you deny a flank, set up for favourable combats and stay away from anything that you don't like the look of! Even if the PWGs do nothing else all game, that's a good investment.

- The checkerboard set up. Search the forums (and possible correct my spelling), and you should find plenty about this set up. It's served me well, and should serve you well too.

I think I've rambled enough. Have fun, that's the most important thing!
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derresser
Clanrat
I don't think there is any serious problem with a horde army in a serious game, so long as you can handle moving many many models on the table. It makes movement a bit more interesting. I think as a skaven player, Horde is one of the only ways to guarantee a lot of success through flank charges and hideous outnumbering.

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Mutator
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fluffstalker
Feb 19 2008, 10:36 PM
I was wondering If i was going horde whether there was any point in bringing some fire support along at all or should I rely on ranks and flanking?

Fire support is useful because it forces your opponent to make a decision with regards to committing his troops, or sitting still and taking fire.

With most combat armies (and the horde is a combat army) you need something to force your opponents hand. We dont have the long charge reaches of cavalry, so we need something else to reach out there and put pressure on.
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Zavratatar
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The incentive to charge, as mutator points out, is really important and it's what shooting and magic adds in a skaven army. It's also extremely useful to get rid of fast cav and flyers, who otherwise mess up the movement game quite horribly...
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