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| Best Piece of advice? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 14th January 2008 - 05:46 AM (842 Views) | |
| Sebrent | 15th January 2008 - 11:03 PM Post #16 |
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Bah to fielding too much of anything as long as your opponent's strategy has some sort of movement face other than step back and shoot (yeah, Tomb Kings & Wood Elves, I'm talking about you, lol). Screen the lizards fire arc with slaves. Charge the lizards with slaves, have the slaves attack the skinks, more often than not win combat, chase the lizards & skinks down for some easy VPs. |
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----Skaven Mathhammer ---- ![]()
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| aa7 | 16th January 2008 - 01:53 AM Post #17 |
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Stormvermin
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6 salamanders is just cheese supreme - someone pass the gouda please. luckily you didnt have to face a stegadon as well. fear on the kroxigor and salamanders is bad enough but terror will ruin any rats day. maybe take 3 rattlers and a warp fire thrower as well as the WLC and some jezzails and see how he likes it having so much cheesy fire power thrown at him. in case you hadnt guessed i think salamanders are the most overpowered and broken monsters/skirmishing/handled monster in the game. they are basically mobile helblasters that cayse fear and have multi wounds for almost no points at all one pack is fine. one pack and a stegadon is getting a bit WAAC but two packs is just plain boring and no fun for anyone.i used to face 6 salamanders often untill i bought an empire gunline with two helblasters two cannons a mortar pistolliers and many many handguns to the table and didnt move but stripped his poxy lizards down a peg or two within the first two turns and he finally realised that all armies have some way to be cheesed out beyond belief and can become boring to play against in a hurry. take a SAD army or similar Empire or Dwarf list as mentioned to him a few times if he continues down the twin linked salamander packs for too long and dish back some of his own crap to him. good luck, and becareful of thos slann if he has one. if he does there is nothing better than a brass orb with his name on it for shits and giggles
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| Sebrent | 16th January 2008 - 04:04 AM Post #18 |
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Why must we always suggest using shooting against shooting? We have 2pt slaves. Heck, just stand them in front of the salamanders and let them try to make back their points. I don't really understand how 15" range S3 attacks are that big of a threat either. Yes, it is with an artillery dice and they can hold their own decently well in close combat, but by merely directing attacks at skinks and having a rank bonus, they are easy broken. Heck, even high elves don't really need to worry about these any more. Anything susceptible to shooting can easily avoid salamanders, white lions and pheonix guard are quite hard to kill with shooting, and high elves can always aim their bolt throwers at the salamander packs and be rid of them in 1-3 turns. Heck, even high elf archers are decent against them. |
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----Skaven Mathhammer ---- ![]()
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| Zavratatar | 16th January 2008 - 01:27 PM Post #19 |
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Grey Seer
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Alert: This is a big post! It contains a mockup scenario of 10 slave units vs 6 salamanders and then some general reasoning about killing salamanders. At the end there's a plug for using plague monks. Not something you want to read? Skip this post. ![]() But seb, slaves just won't do it.. First of all, you'll need the general around to even get them to charge. (fear tests on ld5...) Second, slaves are T3, naked. If there's anything salamanders are good at killing, it's these guys. 6 salamanders do 30 s3 hits on average, leaving me with 5 slaves out of my 20, taking a panictest at leadership 6 (with the general, 2 otherwise..) Clearly then, I need more than one slave unit. Nothing wrong with this, we're after all hunting almost 400pts of lizard here. So let's do ten slave units and get the general for free ![]() 1. Seeing as lizards are skirmish and it's we that want to reach them, they'll be advancing and then backing down and shooting. They'll be splitting their fire on two different units, causing 6-7 casualities on each. (panic tests...) 2. When we get within 15", we'll get shot. Let's say one slave unit makes the LD 7 test, the other one doesn't. We march full spead ahead, now getting withing 5". (3. He moves to place himself in the hole between our units created by the broken unit, then shoots to the sides... This is bad, so we'll go back in time and clean up those gaps.) Back to 2 then... 2. We get shot etc. We move in a bit less this time, keeping ranks nice and tidy. We'll now be within 6" or so. 3. Lizards back down again, keeping the shooting going from 12" away. Another unit lost, another unit reduced to 14. 4. Now we're getting REALLY close... keeping ranks nice and tight, we'll be within 3" at the start of his turn. 5. Lizzards charge 1 unharmed unit, or two separate already wounded ones. Vs the unharmed unit they fit in 4 lizards, hitting with 5-6 attacks and killing 4 slaves. They win by 2, since they outnumber the slaves now... Vs the harmed unit they fit 3 lizards and a skink or so, hitting with 4 lizard attacks and wounding 3. They win by 1, since they outnumber the slaves. No matter what they charged, the slaves have been broken by outnumbering fear-causing enemies. Automatic break, and panic tests for all the units around... The tally so far is having lost 2 units to panic from shooting, one entire unit in close combat and atleast one more from the panic that combat caused. The lizards have now broken the happy skaven line... Still, we'll eventually surround them and get to attack them in front and sides. This combat the skaven should win, despite losing 4 or so against the lizards attacks. (ranks, flanks and outnumber:5) So I'll happily agree that equal points of slave should kill the salamanders. Problem is, how often do you field 10 slave units and have enough room to fit them all against the salamanders? I like the idea of just screening them off the entire game, but 6 salamanders break just about anything we can stand in front of them in one turn, while at the same time moving forward towards the rest of our lines.. And when they reach the flanks, it's clanrat units that are going to get hit by that stuff, subsequently fleeing through the rest of the army... Oh what a rant this has been ![]() My point, anyway, is that we're facing 400pts of focused ranged fire, concentrated into a small huddle of models with high movement. They cause panic tests and they can move around to dictate in which direction we'll be fleeing. Unless you line up your whole army to react to these guys, there'll be chain-effects... They need to be handled, and they need to be handled in turns 2-3 before they start messing up your line. Unless you want to dedicate your general and the abovementioned ten slave units to deal with them, some kind of ranged combat is probably what's best. After all, it's 400pts.. get them with little losses and you'll be ahead in the game! To this regard, salamanders have quite low leadership, even being cold-blooded. They'll quite often fail the monster reaction test, which they have to take once the skinks are dead. Throwing warplightning or the warpscroll at them will wittle down the skinks a bit, so will misfires. To this end, disturbing them with small 30pt units will make them shoot and perhaps misfire, while keeping them moving at a bit slower pace than they'd like. Some slings and jezzails can also do the job, although the latter will take very long to finish... If one absolutely has to do them in with combat units, plague monks with the umbranner could do quite well. T4 and a ward save, and immunity to psychology. Problem is of course frenzy. An army with plenty of M6 skirmishers will probably be baiting the bananas out of the poor monks, but if they reach the lizards, they'll win. I don't ever use plaguemonks, however, so...:My way of dealing with these guys would be shoot them with all I've got... it's after all 400pts not invested in saurii, skinks or kroxies. I'd let the slaves do what they do best, redirect the large scary units and let my clanrats flank them like anything else we fight. /Rant out!
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| Sebrent | 16th January 2008 - 04:14 PM Post #20 |
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First, on average, they do NOT average 30 shots from 3 salamanders. That is the maximum number of shots and the least probable. On average, they will get 14 or 16 (highest probability). Half of those will wound slaves, so 7-8 slaves killed. Well, they just scored 14 to 16 points. Woop-dee-doo. Now, since they only have a 15" range as our units have 10" to 12" charge range, I'm not too horribly concerned as we only have to screen our units from the salamanders for one turn, then we are in close combat and they can not shoot into close combat. I'm am very sick and tired of people calling things cheese. I'm also very sick and tired of people doing the "that is cheese so use this cheese to 'teach them a lesson' " You all do realize that Warhammer is not played where models exist in a vacuum? So what is the salamanders are successful. They are not your opponent's entire army, and with their 15" range, they can not affect your entire army. |
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----Skaven Mathhammer ---- ![]()
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| lashific the Dominator | 17th January 2008 - 12:13 AM Post #21 |
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kicking snow since IC 134
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uhh, sebrent? he said 30 hits is the average for SIX salamanders.......
just so ya know .......
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"Suffer not the witch to live" Ordo Hereticus army diary | |
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| General Vorg | 17th January 2008 - 02:22 AM Post #22 |
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Keeper of the Squeeks and the Temple
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lets not get carried away, Sebrent and Zav are both right to an extent. Salamanders are difficult to defeat and some may even call them cheesy. What is cheesy? Where something can be so good that no skill is involved with victory? Thats my description at least. Now, 400 points of salamanders meand 400 less point and everything else a lizard can dish out. So are salamanders 'cheesy'? yes. Are they invincible enough that you have to do skryre firing line to defeat them? HELL NO! The skaven army is very versitile, if you cannot find another way then 'FIRE ALL GUNS' to destroy some big lizards, then that may be a sign that you need to research your army a bit more. So lets not be mean to eachother. Its a debatable issue, but either way: Salamanders = difficult to defeat when in large numbers, perhaps 'cheesy', but invincible... far from it squeeks |
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| Rubberchrist | 17th January 2008 - 04:21 AM Post #23 |
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Shennanigans are out of the question!
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I wasn't saying I HAD to do skaven firing line... I just said I was GOING to... Besides, I'd get a kick out of going SAD so blatantly just once against someone who I know wouldn't take it personally. -R |
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"Nurgle has got to be my favorite chaos god, fluff wise... He's portrayed as this sort of jovial, jolly old guy who thinks that rotting apocolyptic plague is funny as hell... So basically he's a big ole fat bastard who thinks giving you a scorching case of the herp is a big laugh." ---Kadrium 7th Edition Fellblade Kills: 1 Steam Tank, 1 Warrior Priest, 4 Greatswords, 3 Treekin, 1 Chaos Sorcerer, 5 Chaos Warriors, 13th Spell Kills: 8 Chaos Chosen. | |
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| Zavratatar | 17th January 2008 - 07:44 AM Post #24 |
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Grey Seer
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Good conclusion, Vorg. ![]() I also realized that tunnelteams could do quite well against these guys. ![]() I went back and re-read the skirmishers and combat bit, and as far as I can tell it's a lot harder to get the big lizards into combat than I thought. With these adjustments, it's quite easy to beat them in close combat, as Sebrent says. The problem is still getting there unharmed... Which tunnelteams do very well! ![]() I've got a lizardman game this weekend, he'll probably have salamanders. We're only playing 1500pts however, so there'll only be three of them. I'll use my tunnelteams against them and see how it works. Reporting back on saturday night
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| Mutator | 24th January 2008 - 05:27 AM Post #25 |
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Retired fat dude
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For salamander units to maximise models in contact, they have to bring as many skinks into the combat as possible. Combat res for us. Extra hand weapon night runners will beat salamander units - if you get there intact, and if you pass the fear test to charge. |
| Mostly harmless | |
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one pack is fine. one pack and a stegadon is getting a bit WAAC but two packs is just plain boring and no fun for anyone.


I don't ever use plaguemonks, however, so...:


